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> Not even most of the Democratic base will vote for a white male socialist in his 70's over Hillary Why do you say that? I could perhaps be convinced, but at

by javert 11y ago

> Not even most of the Democratic base will vote for a white male socialist in his 70's over Hillary Why do you say that? I could perhaps be convinced, but at this point I don't see any reason to think that.

pweissbrod 11y ago
Thinking back to the 2012 election, the sentiment of reducing government/cutting taxes in this country is palpably strong. The word "socialist" itself gradually became established as an anti-american insult. Republicans worked hard to place this label on obama as an affront to american freedom reminiscent of communism. Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. It actually reminds me of how Kerry lost to Bush in the early 2000s largely because of his support for gay rights.
- gerty 11y ago
  > His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. That's not exactly true. I recall an article in the Washington Post explaining that his propositions are actually supported by majority of Americans. Sanders is not a real socialist, he's just a New Deal Democrat.
  - res0nat0r 11y ago
    Most of America is for the ACA, but against Obamacare, it all depends on how you phrase the question. The issue is that most of America isn't represented when it comes time to vote, only a small subset of people do, and those who do are not going to be voting for Sanders when it comes time to choose which Democrat to get behind.
    - javert 11y ago
      > Most of America is for the ACA, but against Obamacare, it all depends on how you phrase the question. Citation needed. I can't believe that without some kind of evidence. I can believe that the wording of the question matters, but not that it's "ACA" vs. "Obamacare."
      - p_eter_p 11y ago
        http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/27/poll-obamacare-vs-affordable-care-act/ http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/27/poll-obamaca...
        javert 11y ago
        Thanks, though this clearly does not support the claim that was made. If this is the source of the claim---and it appears that it probably was---the claim is a serious mis-statement.
        res0nat0r 11y ago
        Feel free to Google for other articles that state the same, but the overall point is that: People that claim that Sanders' views are widely supported are not at all indicative of what will translate to the voting booth.
        javert 11y ago
        That may be true---actually, I think it probably is. But that has nothing to do with the extremely bleak and cynical statement you made: > Most of America is for the ACA, but against Obamacare, it all depends on how you phrase the question which, fortunately, appears not to be the case.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  >Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. Just because you told all the socialists in the USA that we're unpatriotic traitors and should shut the hell up, doesn't mean we stopped actually existing. And now we've got a candidate who stands for our views.
  - gjm11 11y ago
    No, it doesn't mean that there are no socialists in the US. But if the people of the US, as a whole, have by whatever means come to hate and fear socialists and socialism, then someone who's willing to describe himself as a socialist is not likely to do well in a US general election.
  - pweissbrod 11y ago
    The question was "why isnt bernie sanders a viable candidate?". You just said it yourself: most americans perceive socialist values as the antithesis of american values. Hence your candidate is not viable in this political climate. Sorry, I agree with your spirit but your arguing against a straw man.
  - javert 11y ago
    What exactly is different between the ideology underpinning Democrats, and socialism? I'm genuinely asking what you think the difference is. The Democrats obviously support socialized medicine, socialized education, wealth redistribution via high taxes, and significant regulation of private enterprise. To me, that is the same as socialism, except perhaps in minor technicalities of implementation, which are relatively unimportant. For instance, maybe a "true socialist" would favor the state owning enterprises, rather than massive tax-and-regulate, but to me, that is not an important difference. Hence, as a rule of thumb, I consider all Democrats to be socialists. So, I don't think Hillary or Obama is much different from Sanders, except that he is more bold and open and labels himself differently. I am genuinely interested in your views on this. I'm not going to change your mind on politics, you're not going to change mine, that is not my goal here.
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
marktd 11y ago
At the end of the day, the most electable candidate tends to get nominated. Not always, but typically. And Hillary, even despite her challenges, is much more electable than Bernie, because she's much closer to the center. Of course, continuing email controversies could change that. But unless they do, Bernie's chances of winning are near 0.
philwelch 11y ago
Sanders' support is almost exclusively from white progressives. He has almost no traction with minorities and less pull with women than Hillary. He's also well to the left of the Democratic base.

by javert 11y ago

pweissbrod 11y ago

Thinking back to the 2012 election, the sentiment of reducing government/cutting taxes in this country is palpably strong. The word "socialist" itself gradually became established as an anti-american insult. Republicans worked hard to place this label on obama as an affront to american freedom reminiscent of communism. Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. It actually reminds me of how Kerry lost to Bush in the early 2000s largely because of his support for gay rights.

gerty 11y ago
> His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. That's not exactly true. I recall an article in the Washington Post explaining that his propositions are actually supported by majority of Americans. Sanders is not a real socialist, he's just a New Deal Democrat.
- res0nat0r 11y ago
  Most of America is for the ACA, but against Obamacare, it all depends on how you phrase the question. The issue is that most of America isn't represented when it comes time to vote, only a small subset of people do, and those who do are not going to be voting for Sanders when it comes time to choose which Democrat to get behind.
  - javert 11y ago
    > Most of America is for the ACA, but against Obamacare, it all depends on how you phrase the question. Citation needed. I can't believe that without some kind of evidence. I can believe that the wording of the question matters, but not that it's "ACA" vs. "Obamacare."
    - p_eter_p 11y ago
      http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/27/poll-obamacare-vs-affordable-care-act/ http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/27/poll-obamaca...
      - javert 11y ago
        Thanks, though this clearly does not support the claim that was made. If this is the source of the claim---and it appears that it probably was---the claim is a serious mis-statement.
        res0nat0r 11y ago
        Feel free to Google for other articles that state the same, but the overall point is that: People that claim that Sanders' views are widely supported are not at all indicative of what will translate to the voting booth.
        javert 11y ago
        That may be true---actually, I think it probably is. But that has nothing to do with the extremely bleak and cynical statement you made: > Most of America is for the ACA, but against Obamacare, it all depends on how you phrase the question which, fortunately, appears not to be the case.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. Just because you told all the socialists in the USA that we're unpatriotic traitors and should shut the hell up, doesn't mean we stopped actually existing. And now we've got a candidate who stands for our views.
- gjm11 11y ago
  No, it doesn't mean that there are no socialists in the US. But if the people of the US, as a whole, have by whatever means come to hate and fear socialists and socialism, then someone who's willing to describe himself as a socialist is not likely to do well in a US general election.
- pweissbrod 11y ago
  The question was "why isnt bernie sanders a viable candidate?". You just said it yourself: most americans perceive socialist values as the antithesis of american values. Hence your candidate is not viable in this political climate. Sorry, I agree with your spirit but your arguing against a straw man.
- javert 11y ago
  What exactly is different between the ideology underpinning Democrats, and socialism? I'm genuinely asking what you think the difference is. The Democrats obviously support socialized medicine, socialized education, wealth redistribution via high taxes, and significant regulation of private enterprise. To me, that is the same as socialism, except perhaps in minor technicalities of implementation, which are relatively unimportant. For instance, maybe a "true socialist" would favor the state owning enterprises, rather than massive tax-and-regulate, but to me, that is not an important difference. Hence, as a rule of thumb, I consider all Democrats to be socialists. So, I don't think Hillary or Obama is much different from Sanders, except that he is more bold and open and labels himself differently. I am genuinely interested in your views on this. I'm not going to change your mind on politics, you're not going to change mine, that is not my goal here.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago

marktd 11y ago

At the end of the day, the most electable candidate tends to get nominated. Not always, but typically. And Hillary, even despite her challenges, is much more electable than Bernie, because she's much closer to the center. Of course, continuing email controversies could change that. But unless they do, Bernie's chances of winning are near 0.

philwelch 11y ago

Sanders' support is almost exclusively from white progressives. He has almost no traction with minorities and less pull with women than Hillary. He's also well to the left of the Democratic base.