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"In January, thousands of the smallest businesses closed or abandoned their digital strategy." Numbers and sources for this please. Considering this comes fro

"In January, thousands of the smallest businesses closed or abandoned their digital strategy." Numbers and sources for this please. Considering this comes from "EU VAT action" I somewhat question their objectivity. They rather try to back their agenda.

Mithaldu 11y ago
Agreed. I do business in 3 countries and have no issues, and buy stuff from small and big web shops in different countries without issues. I'd really like to know how many shops exactly closed down, as well as a representative sample of case studies.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I'm running one of those companies affected by this and it is a huge pain in the behind. For many of the countries the administrative fees are a large multiple of the amounts due. On top of that they're a bunch of incompetents, I got hit with a 4500 euro 'overdue' notice from the Irish tax department which they pulled entirely out of thin air. It's a huge annoyance and I'll be more than happy if this goes away or if I simply have to pay the dutch high VAT tariff. Amazon got to reap the benefit of their tax avoidance scheme for years and small businesses end up with the balance of the burden.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    What exactly has changed for you? How are you addressing it, and how does it cost so much more? I'm really curious, since on my end nothing has changed at all. > I got hit with a 4500 euro 'overdue' notice This and the mention of the 100_000€ bill in the article makes me think one of the main issues seems to be incompetent handling by the offices in question. Does that seem accurate?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      For every subscription sold I have to record which country that person is from, prove that they actually were from that country and accurately account for and pay VAT into the coffers of that particular country's VAT administration. The MOSS makes this marginally easier but it is still a ridiculously complex system especially given the fact that there is no 'minimum amount' below which you can abstain from filing. Essentially you're going to have to have to spend 10's of euros per country per month to file pennies. It makes no sense. And incompetence on the part of the Irish authorities surely plays a part by they're not the only ones that came up with this scheme by themselves.
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        Ok, now i understand the sitation more clearly. Thanks for the accurate description. The main issue is when dealing with non-business customers. Sounds to me like there might be a market niche for escrows that will process the payments for local business and handle the tax issues.
    - hrbrtglm 11y ago
      > since on my end nothing has changed at all. If nothing changed at all, you may be doing it wrong. Which country are you billing from, which european countries are you selling to ? Are you selling a single product/services, several with each different tax rates ? How do you know which VAT rates you have to apply, are you vatmoss registered ? It's a difficult subject, I'm really surprised it seems so easy for you (or anybody else)
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        Germany to UK, Germany and France. I sell my services as a developer. And according to my tax advisor (who has power of attorney for me and handles everything) my invoices to UK and France are perfectly fine with a note stating that they are without VAT due to specific laws in the respective countries. And i think that maybe the fact that it is difficult for some people, but a complete non-issue for others is what keeps this entire issue from being effectively communicated to europe at large; since everyone talking about it treats it like the end of the world, but doesn't give specific details on the issues or the costs; while for many people they don't even need to think about it.
        dogma1138 11y ago
        I'm sorry but you might want to get a 2nd opinion B2B services in the UK are VAT taxable. Since you are delivering services from outside of the UK a reverse charge needs to be assigned. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vatpossmanual/vatposs06300.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vatpossmanual/vatposs06300.ht... In the UK there's also a difference in VAT and taxation if you are registered as self employed, contractor or if you are running you own business. HMRC actually has quite a good selection of tools for paying VAT and taxes that simplifies things to some extent especially for self employed individuals or contractors. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/gds/online/new.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/gds/online/new.htm Please note that in most countries you are still responsible for overdue taxes even if your accountant has power of attorney, you are the one who will be liable for it, you can sue your accountant for damages for sure but you'll be the one left stranded to sort things out if the payments were mishandled.
- laut 11y ago
  Do you sell to consumers? Do you sell an average of more than one order each day to different countries? This is a problem for smaller companies selling to consumers in various European countries every day. I know companies for which these rules are a big problem.
talmand 11y ago
A news search on "EU Digital VAT" shows numerous articles from numerous places claiming the same thing. But I'm not up to speed on what constitutes an objective news source for the EU on the matter.

Mithaldu 11y ago

Agreed. I do business in 3 countries and have no issues, and buy stuff from small and big web shops in different countries without issues. I'd really like to know how many shops exactly closed down, as well as a representative sample of case studies.

jacquesm 11y ago
I'm running one of those companies affected by this and it is a huge pain in the behind. For many of the countries the administrative fees are a large multiple of the amounts due. On top of that they're a bunch of incompetents, I got hit with a 4500 euro 'overdue' notice from the Irish tax department which they pulled entirely out of thin air. It's a huge annoyance and I'll be more than happy if this goes away or if I simply have to pay the dutch high VAT tariff. Amazon got to reap the benefit of their tax avoidance scheme for years and small businesses end up with the balance of the burden.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  What exactly has changed for you? How are you addressing it, and how does it cost so much more? I'm really curious, since on my end nothing has changed at all. > I got hit with a 4500 euro 'overdue' notice This and the mention of the 100_000€ bill in the article makes me think one of the main issues seems to be incompetent handling by the offices in question. Does that seem accurate?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    For every subscription sold I have to record which country that person is from, prove that they actually were from that country and accurately account for and pay VAT into the coffers of that particular country's VAT administration. The MOSS makes this marginally easier but it is still a ridiculously complex system especially given the fact that there is no 'minimum amount' below which you can abstain from filing. Essentially you're going to have to have to spend 10's of euros per country per month to file pennies. It makes no sense. And incompetence on the part of the Irish authorities surely plays a part by they're not the only ones that came up with this scheme by themselves.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      Ok, now i understand the sitation more clearly. Thanks for the accurate description. The main issue is when dealing with non-business customers. Sounds to me like there might be a market niche for escrows that will process the payments for local business and handle the tax issues.
  - hrbrtglm 11y ago
    > since on my end nothing has changed at all. If nothing changed at all, you may be doing it wrong. Which country are you billing from, which european countries are you selling to ? Are you selling a single product/services, several with each different tax rates ? How do you know which VAT rates you have to apply, are you vatmoss registered ? It's a difficult subject, I'm really surprised it seems so easy for you (or anybody else)
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      Germany to UK, Germany and France. I sell my services as a developer. And according to my tax advisor (who has power of attorney for me and handles everything) my invoices to UK and France are perfectly fine with a note stating that they are without VAT due to specific laws in the respective countries. And i think that maybe the fact that it is difficult for some people, but a complete non-issue for others is what keeps this entire issue from being effectively communicated to europe at large; since everyone talking about it treats it like the end of the world, but doesn't give specific details on the issues or the costs; while for many people they don't even need to think about it.
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        I'm sorry but you might want to get a 2nd opinion B2B services in the UK are VAT taxable. Since you are delivering services from outside of the UK a reverse charge needs to be assigned. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vatpossmanual/vatposs06300.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vatpossmanual/vatposs06300.ht... In the UK there's also a difference in VAT and taxation if you are registered as self employed, contractor or if you are running you own business. HMRC actually has quite a good selection of tools for paying VAT and taxes that simplifies things to some extent especially for self employed individuals or contractors. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/gds/online/new.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/gds/online/new.htm Please note that in most countries you are still responsible for overdue taxes even if your accountant has power of attorney, you are the one who will be liable for it, you can sue your accountant for damages for sure but you'll be the one left stranded to sort things out if the payments were mishandled.
laut 11y ago
Do you sell to consumers? Do you sell an average of more than one order each day to different countries? This is a problem for smaller companies selling to consumers in various European countries every day. I know companies for which these rules are a big problem.

talmand 11y ago

A news search on "EU Digital VAT" shows numerous articles from numerous places claiming the same thing. But I'm not up to speed on what constitutes an objective news source for the EU on the matter.