6 ms·

Seriously, I read several posts here that I'm absolutely sure where written by NSA/GCHQ agents working very comfy to try and manipulate technical opinion. Anyon

Seriously, I read several posts here that I'm absolutely sure where written by NSA/GCHQ agents working very comfy to try and manipulate technical opinion. Anyone with a brain and enough technical knowledge (which can be assumed of HN readers) knows the situation is much worse than 1984, beyond Orwellian, absurd, ridiculous, disgusting. If you where a Secret Agency, and you knew the top 100 news/forums for opinionated technical people, would you not set a division of monkeys to try and confuse people? They win if some people even "doubt" or "question"... we must all be 100% sure of what is happening, 24h a day, ready to feel threatened and abused by cameras, abusive permissions, tracking devices, dragnets. We must feel the disgust 24h a day.

cryoshon 11y ago
Yeah, I definitely get this vibe quite strongly too. We know they're out there, if not here. HN readers understand the scope of the dragnet and the systematic analysis of content and metadata. In part, this is why I am patrolling around to offer good objections to the idiots. I am highly suspicious of very-upvoted yet very dumb/uneducated/intentionally misleading comments in this thread, also. The objections are too canned/simple/easy to shoot down, and they rely on emotion rather than facts. The tech crowd's acquiescence to the surveillance state is absolutely necessary for it to function as designed.
- deltaprotocol 11y ago
  "The tech crowd's acquiescence to the surveillance state is absolutely necessary for it to function as designed. " Well said! Since we have the toolset to understand what is happening, we must be the main source of outrage. When we come online and do our stuff, we represent our families, our friends, or coworkers. Everyone around us that do not have the same tools to understand/interpret the abuses and the propaganda. We like to think that everyone should understand what is going on, but this is impossible in a short/medium or even long term. People use the Internet like they use the building they live, or the house. They haven't built it and they don't understand, and don't need to understand how it was built or its internals. They are the users. They presume the architects/engineers involved where responsible, good people, that did a good job and wanted for them, future residents, to have a nice home. If you are an engineer building a Shopping Center, and you get to know how the company you work for is abusive towards its employees or how they are overpricing resources in a public contract or manipulating prices, or doing a dirty job using an unsafe structure or bad materials, it is you who should act. You can't expect someone else or everyone to act, to understand what you understand because you are in a position to understand. If you do not act, if you do not take a position, if you do not represent the ones that are unaware, you become the same as them. The only way we can make out of this bizarre situation is if everyone of us takes his role in society, whatever society, with his/her heart. Do it with love towards your neighbour. There is no other way. In tech, we are often quite cold because we deal with machines, but we are still flesh and bone behind screens, and our love should be directed to protecting the users.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    It would sure help if we didn't have to act alone. If we were part of some larger organization (Engineers' Guild or some such) that would protect members with money or legal aid, when they took a moral stand. Even advise about the right path. Loving your neighbor is good; but income for my family will probably take precedence most of the time.
    - cryoshon 11y ago
      So we need a union? I agree. How about something along the lines of the Guild of Engineers and Scientists? A broader base of smart people would be helpful, but I'm not sure if it'd dilute the effectiveness of speaking out.
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        'Union' is a loaded word. I absolutely don't need a union trying to limit my wages or negotiate on my behalf with my employer. Until I get in trouble for taking a stand. Then I need them.
      - nosuchthing 11y ago
        Unions have become antiquated and corrupt.. A Guild/Collective for Tech Engineers, Scientists • Transparent decision making + expenditures (opt in/out services) • Challenges and certifications for members • Recruiter / job match type service
    - akshatpradhan 11y ago
      I'd like to throw a story into the privacy discussion. Do you know what a full content packet capture is? It’s when you’re able to grab every piece of data transmitted over a network using a tool called tcpdump. You can use another tool to reassemble those collected data packets into complete applications, movie or music files, even video chats and phone calls. Safari Books defines full content data as, “the most flexible form of network-based information. It is a rich form of evidence offering detail and opportunities seldom found elsewhere. Once full content data has been acquired, analysts can derive session, alert, and statistical data if necessary.” As a joke, an instructor once told me that when they went onsite to do security investigations, they would do a full content dump; if someone was downloading videos at the time, my instructor would say, “Thanks for the movie, guys!” This is what the Utah Data Center is doing. All packets are collected using a tool like tcpdump, and then the Center reassembles them and categorizes the content into data cubes (e.g., movies, video calls, emails) that are easily findable with open source search engines such as Lucene and Solr. Is this taking security seriously? You bet! When you ask a security professional what they recommend is the most reasonable approach to protecting sensitive health records, they will say, “Its all about Penetration Tests, Risk Assessments, and IDS.” Mass Traffic Collection is currently one example that’s being taken very seriously as an approach to security. If a hosting provider like Akamai — which, runs 30% of the world’s web traffic — is able to reassemble your packets, and even archive them, is that what you want security to be? Probably not, but when a security professional says “let’s take security seriously”, to them it means just watch all the things. That may sound a bit paranoid but check out this pretty spooky Hacking Team Commercial[1] where they specifically say, “Is passive monitoring enough? You want to look through your target’s eyes.” I remember in 2006, after my IDS training, I was all for collecting every single packet (no matter what) because I was taught as a security professional, that was the only way I could do my job: watch everything, since we need to know everything about anything. If you watch everything, that’s inherently security, and the world is protected. That was my modus operandi for many years. This is why taking privacy and security seriously really means taking compliance seriously. Compliance lassos in “watch everything” while also providing validation and proof of security. If we’re doing good hygiene (e.g. Key rotation, Log review, Code review, Change control, etc. ) in our forts, there’s no reason to collect and watch everything. If compliance fails as an approach to security, IDS could expand to a massive data collection agent running on every company in the world. The recipe to collect everything already exists but that means only security is being taken seriously. I hope we start to take compliance seriously because I think that is the intersection for good privacy and good security. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R63CRBNLE2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R63CRBNLE2o
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- discreteevent 11y ago
  First of all, to be clear, I think that this phenomenon of mass surveillance is appalling. However when I read both your comment and the parent comment I felt something. What was it? - Bullied.They are bullying (even though your intention is to defend against the real material bullying of mass surveillance) The truth is that although there may be spies here that's are also people who have opinions that are genuinely contrary to yours. You are calling those people "idiots", "dumb", and "NSA agents". This may discourage those people and particularly other people from commenting. I want to hear whatever people think based on their experience. I don't want group think. If we get enough comments like yours and they are upvoted strongly then plenty of people will just shut up because they can see that it will cost them. You could have made your points as just as strongly without any of this.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    Given the material in the Snowden files her post was accurate. In light of HN practice of banning accounts that accuse people of shilling her post was actually quite brave. See any controversial discussion -- posts will disappear and accounts will be hell banned. In other words those that do the calling out have been and are genuinely punished. She did well to not to call individual accounts out and to keep things civil.
cbd1984 11y ago
> the situation is much worse than 1984 You never read the novel, I take it? Or else how do you compare the UK to the Stalinist USSR?
- deltaprotocol 11y ago
  I'm a citizen of a third world country. My country has 500 years of history, only that. 500 years of genocide, exploitation, abuse, external governments manipulation, American media penetration and influence on public opinion to a point where our population hates its own lifestyle and glorifies some other green grass. So maybe my point of view is biased when I say that, to me, it looks "beyond Orwellian" now that we have all the cameras, all the satelites, all the propaganda, and, most of all, my dearest Internet, the thing I should be proud to deliver to the next generations of human beings, completely dominated by abusive, illegal, unrespectful, inhuman secret agencies that protect only the ones behind the capital in their war of interest. I'm just a human unit, I feel very, very opressed knowing what I know. I do not walk the street in peace. I do not roam freely, even though most people still do. What I understand puts me in a place of distrust. And that, to me, is quite worse than any fiction.
mulmen 11y ago
I'm not sure the present situation is actually worse than 1984 or "beyond Orwellian" but agreed on absurd, ridiculous and disgusting. The fact that we are even having a conversation about the similarity is concerning. The observation that a community may be infiltrated by spooks reminds me of spot the fed: https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-15/dc-15-stf.html https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-15/dc-15-stf.html.
- deltaprotocol 11y ago
  Maybe I was too harsh there, I'm sorry. But I believe you answered it: "The fact that we are even having a conversation about the similarity is concerning". One is fictional. The other is real, very real, right now, in our lifetimes. Do you see it receding? Ending? Mass surveillance or anything? It's "maybe worse", "maybe comparable" right now, but the machinery is very strong already. And you know the thing with power, right?

cryoshon 11y ago

Yeah, I definitely get this vibe quite strongly too. We know they're out there, if not here. HN readers understand the scope of the dragnet and the systematic analysis of content and metadata. In part, this is why I am patrolling around to offer good objections to the idiots. I am highly suspicious of very-upvoted yet very dumb/uneducated/intentionally misleading comments in this thread, also. The objections are too canned/simple/easy to shoot down, and they rely on emotion rather than facts. The tech crowd's acquiescence to the surveillance state is absolutely necessary for it to function as designed.

deltaprotocol 11y ago
"The tech crowd's acquiescence to the surveillance state is absolutely necessary for it to function as designed. " Well said! Since we have the toolset to understand what is happening, we must be the main source of outrage. When we come online and do our stuff, we represent our families, our friends, or coworkers. Everyone around us that do not have the same tools to understand/interpret the abuses and the propaganda. We like to think that everyone should understand what is going on, but this is impossible in a short/medium or even long term. People use the Internet like they use the building they live, or the house. They haven't built it and they don't understand, and don't need to understand how it was built or its internals. They are the users. They presume the architects/engineers involved where responsible, good people, that did a good job and wanted for them, future residents, to have a nice home. If you are an engineer building a Shopping Center, and you get to know how the company you work for is abusive towards its employees or how they are overpricing resources in a public contract or manipulating prices, or doing a dirty job using an unsafe structure or bad materials, it is you who should act. You can't expect someone else or everyone to act, to understand what you understand because you are in a position to understand. If you do not act, if you do not take a position, if you do not represent the ones that are unaware, you become the same as them. The only way we can make out of this bizarre situation is if everyone of us takes his role in society, whatever society, with his/her heart. Do it with love towards your neighbour. There is no other way. In tech, we are often quite cold because we deal with machines, but we are still flesh and bone behind screens, and our love should be directed to protecting the users.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  It would sure help if we didn't have to act alone. If we were part of some larger organization (Engineers' Guild or some such) that would protect members with money or legal aid, when they took a moral stand. Even advise about the right path. Loving your neighbor is good; but income for my family will probably take precedence most of the time.
  - cryoshon 11y ago
    So we need a union? I agree. How about something along the lines of the Guild of Engineers and Scientists? A broader base of smart people would be helpful, but I'm not sure if it'd dilute the effectiveness of speaking out.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      'Union' is a loaded word. I absolutely don't need a union trying to limit my wages or negotiate on my behalf with my employer. Until I get in trouble for taking a stand. Then I need them.
    - nosuchthing 11y ago
      Unions have become antiquated and corrupt.. A Guild/Collective for Tech Engineers, Scientists • Transparent decision making + expenditures (opt in/out services) • Challenges and certifications for members • Recruiter / job match type service
  - akshatpradhan 11y ago
    I'd like to throw a story into the privacy discussion. Do you know what a full content packet capture is? It’s when you’re able to grab every piece of data transmitted over a network using a tool called tcpdump. You can use another tool to reassemble those collected data packets into complete applications, movie or music files, even video chats and phone calls. Safari Books defines full content data as, “the most flexible form of network-based information. It is a rich form of evidence offering detail and opportunities seldom found elsewhere. Once full content data has been acquired, analysts can derive session, alert, and statistical data if necessary.” As a joke, an instructor once told me that when they went onsite to do security investigations, they would do a full content dump; if someone was downloading videos at the time, my instructor would say, “Thanks for the movie, guys!” This is what the Utah Data Center is doing. All packets are collected using a tool like tcpdump, and then the Center reassembles them and categorizes the content into data cubes (e.g., movies, video calls, emails) that are easily findable with open source search engines such as Lucene and Solr. Is this taking security seriously? You bet! When you ask a security professional what they recommend is the most reasonable approach to protecting sensitive health records, they will say, “Its all about Penetration Tests, Risk Assessments, and IDS.” Mass Traffic Collection is currently one example that’s being taken very seriously as an approach to security. If a hosting provider like Akamai — which, runs 30% of the world’s web traffic — is able to reassemble your packets, and even archive them, is that what you want security to be? Probably not, but when a security professional says “let’s take security seriously”, to them it means just watch all the things. That may sound a bit paranoid but check out this pretty spooky Hacking Team Commercial[1] where they specifically say, “Is passive monitoring enough? You want to look through your target’s eyes.” I remember in 2006, after my IDS training, I was all for collecting every single packet (no matter what) because I was taught as a security professional, that was the only way I could do my job: watch everything, since we need to know everything about anything. If you watch everything, that’s inherently security, and the world is protected. That was my modus operandi for many years. This is why taking privacy and security seriously really means taking compliance seriously. Compliance lassos in “watch everything” while also providing validation and proof of security. If we’re doing good hygiene (e.g. Key rotation, Log review, Code review, Change control, etc. ) in our forts, there’s no reason to collect and watch everything. If compliance fails as an approach to security, IDS could expand to a massive data collection agent running on every company in the world. The recipe to collect everything already exists but that means only security is being taken seriously. I hope we start to take compliance seriously because I think that is the intersection for good privacy and good security. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R63CRBNLE2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R63CRBNLE2o
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
discreteevent 11y ago
First of all, to be clear, I think that this phenomenon of mass surveillance is appalling. However when I read both your comment and the parent comment I felt something. What was it? - Bullied.They are bullying (even though your intention is to defend against the real material bullying of mass surveillance) The truth is that although there may be spies here that's are also people who have opinions that are genuinely contrary to yours. You are calling those people "idiots", "dumb", and "NSA agents". This may discourage those people and particularly other people from commenting. I want to hear whatever people think based on their experience. I don't want group think. If we get enough comments like yours and they are upvoted strongly then plenty of people will just shut up because they can see that it will cost them. You could have made your points as just as strongly without any of this.
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  Given the material in the Snowden files her post was accurate. In light of HN practice of banning accounts that accuse people of shilling her post was actually quite brave. See any controversial discussion -- posts will disappear and accounts will be hell banned. In other words those that do the calling out have been and are genuinely punished. She did well to not to call individual accounts out and to keep things civil.

cbd1984 11y ago

> the situation is much worse than 1984 You never read the novel, I take it? Or else how do you compare the UK to the Stalinist USSR?

deltaprotocol 11y ago
I'm a citizen of a third world country. My country has 500 years of history, only that. 500 years of genocide, exploitation, abuse, external governments manipulation, American media penetration and influence on public opinion to a point where our population hates its own lifestyle and glorifies some other green grass. So maybe my point of view is biased when I say that, to me, it looks "beyond Orwellian" now that we have all the cameras, all the satelites, all the propaganda, and, most of all, my dearest Internet, the thing I should be proud to deliver to the next generations of human beings, completely dominated by abusive, illegal, unrespectful, inhuman secret agencies that protect only the ones behind the capital in their war of interest. I'm just a human unit, I feel very, very opressed knowing what I know. I do not walk the street in peace. I do not roam freely, even though most people still do. What I understand puts me in a place of distrust. And that, to me, is quite worse than any fiction.

mulmen 11y ago

I'm not sure the present situation is actually worse than 1984 or "beyond Orwellian" but agreed on absurd, ridiculous and disgusting. The fact that we are even having a conversation about the similarity is concerning. The observation that a community may be infiltrated by spooks reminds me of spot the fed: https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-15/dc-15-stf.html https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-15/dc-15-stf.html.

deltaprotocol 11y ago
Maybe I was too harsh there, I'm sorry. But I believe you answered it: "The fact that we are even having a conversation about the similarity is concerning". One is fictional. The other is real, very real, right now, in our lifetimes. Do you see it receding? Ending? Mass surveillance or anything? It's "maybe worse", "maybe comparable" right now, but the machinery is very strong already. And you know the thing with power, right?