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If anyone can read this and /not/ believe that the security state is very much active in a covert way on social media, reddit, and even specialized forums like

If anyone can read this and /not/ believe that the security state is very much active in a covert way on social media, reddit, and even specialized forums like this... I realize that to suggest that, say, some proportion of the reddit mods are on the payroll of a .gov alphabet agency sounds like tinfoil hat territory, but it would have been dramatically crazier in the 50's to suggest that the CIA was funding socialist literary magazines, art galleries, and the like.

RodericDay 11y ago
iirc there was a Powerpoint slide in one of Snowden's leaks that basically explicitly discussed manipulation of such fora. I post this in hopes someone who recalls better links to it.
- adsr 11y ago
  Was it JTRIG? In any case, here are links to the stories from the Intercept. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula... https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/22/controversial-gchq-unit-domestic-law-enforcement-propaganda/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/22/controversial-...
igravious 11y ago
Not just literary magazines and social media. For instance, I went to an art exhibition in Berlin a couple of years back to see a retrospective of mid 20th century painting, and some of the info-cards claimed that the CIA sponsored a lot of the avant-garde US and European artists as a way to reject Soviet Social Realism movement. To show in a way that art in the West was freer in its imagination, execution, and scope. Quick Google, here's[1] a piece from the British newspaper, the Independent form 1995 :) It is interesting that despotic regimes tend to persecute intellectuals and artists whereas the CIA, though far from lily-white, seems to have done the opposite. Though I'd say the dossier on Chomsky is a mile long! [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-w...
cryoshon 11y ago
How is it tinfoil hat territory when we have been leaked information confirming what you said? We really need to ditch the tinge of conspiracy "theory" when we talk about these issues, they're backed up by primary sourced evidence that wasn't tampered with and corroborated by insiders that are independent from each other. If this were science, this would be as much evidence as we would have for the primary working hypothesis to describe the phenomena.
- Sven7 11y ago
  Ditch the tinge of conspiracy? How is he supposed to get clicks and pay his rent?
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    Hey this is serious stuff, the government is manipulating your brain without your consent, don't reduce it to crass commercialism.
    - Sven7 11y ago
      I am more worried about Kim Kardashian's mind control powers over the masses.
- ianremsen 11y ago
  We need to stop classifying whole swaths of ideas as junk because they sound too similar to 'conspiracy theories'. This dogma is unspeakably harmful to the truth and is easy to cultivate by those on the other end, by those who would be served better if the opposition were bearers of tinfoil, not bearers of bad news. Most of it is bullshit, sure, but most people are indeed 'sheep' (for lack of a better word), they don't do any sort of digging to figure out the truth for themselves. Whoever gets to them first earns the right to spread their own opinion, since the first opinion is the hardest to change.
  - brc 11y ago
    'Tinfoil hat' and 'conspiracy theorist' are just debate-stopping names thrown around. This is obviously true because anyone who tries to introduce an idea typically feels compelled to put a disclaimer 'I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but' as a leader. The same pattern appears whenever whole topics of discussion are regarded as not allowed. It's the unmistakable signature of a move by someone to shut down debate using labels over arguments.
walterbell 11y ago
Edward Walker has a dissertation and book ("Grassroots for Hire") which includes data on modern-day commercial astroturfing, https://qualpolicomm.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/q-a-with-ed-walker-on-grassroots-for-hire/ https://qualpolicomm.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/q-a-with-ed-wa... "Walker examines the “back stage” work that public affairs professionals do to organize the “front stage” of public participation on behalf of various clients in part by incentivizing, coordinating, and orchestrating engagement ... the book does open up a new agenda .. on a variety of topics including public trust in advocacy groups (and its consequences) .. and also broader questions about the consequences of professionally-facilitated advocacy ... we also need to know more about how these campaigns affect corporate bottom lines, similar to how others have studied the effects of protests on stock prices."
notahacker 11y ago
Really? I'd have thought it was a pretty uncontroversial claim that government agencies were funding anti-communist media organizations in the middle of the Cold War (when, let's face it, they were doing it quite openly in many instances). I wouldn't be at all surprised to they are doing something similar with moderate Islamic organizations and interfaith dialogue groups (not to mention many anodyne business ventures with roots in the Middle East) today. But suggesting that censoring the anti-authoritarian playground that is Reddit or persuading Hacker Newsers of the virtues of the TSA are sufficiently high on their list of current national security priorities to dedicate manpower to in our current environment just seems... rather more of a stretch. If they are attempting to astroturf these particular corners of the internet it's something of an understatement to say they're not very good at it.
- jgaxn 11y ago
  Nice try, CIA.
  - notahacker 11y ago
    Damn it, cover blown! When startup enthusiasts start joining ISIS in droves it'll be all your fault :-)
- knowaveragejoe 11y ago
  > But suggesting that censoring the anti-authoritarian playground that is Reddit or persuading Hacker Newsers of the virtues of the TSA are sufficiently high on their list of current national security priorities to dedicate manpower to in our current environment just seems... rather more of a stretch. > If they are attempting to astroturf these particular corners of the internet it's something of an understatement to say they're not very good at it. This is where I have trouble buying into this being present on HN or reddit. For what purpose? What goal are they pursuing?
  - socceroos 11y ago
    Surely the same goal as everywhere else? To shape the minds of people.
AndyMcConachie 11y ago
For something a bit more concrete. Take a look at what IARPA is funding and has funded in the past. http://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs http://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs This may not go far in answering your questions regarding government funded sock puppets, but it gives an idea of what they're interested in. Basically they're interested in damn near everything, and they're willing to spend large sums of money investigating what works.

RodericDay 11y ago

iirc there was a Powerpoint slide in one of Snowden's leaks that basically explicitly discussed manipulation of such fora. I post this in hopes someone who recalls better links to it.

adsr 11y ago
Was it JTRIG? In any case, here are links to the stories from the Intercept. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula... https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/22/controversial-gchq-unit-domestic-law-enforcement-propaganda/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/22/controversial-...

igravious 11y ago

Not just literary magazines and social media. For instance, I went to an art exhibition in Berlin a couple of years back to see a retrospective of mid 20th century painting, and some of the info-cards claimed that the CIA sponsored a lot of the avant-garde US and European artists as a way to reject Soviet Social Realism movement. To show in a way that art in the West was freer in its imagination, execution, and scope. Quick Google, here's[1] a piece from the British newspaper, the Independent form 1995 :) It is interesting that despotic regimes tend to persecute intellectuals and artists whereas the CIA, though far from lily-white, seems to have done the opposite. Though I'd say the dossier on Chomsky is a mile long! [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-w...

cryoshon 11y ago

How is it tinfoil hat territory when we have been leaked information confirming what you said? We really need to ditch the tinge of conspiracy "theory" when we talk about these issues, they're backed up by primary sourced evidence that wasn't tampered with and corroborated by insiders that are independent from each other. If this were science, this would be as much evidence as we would have for the primary working hypothesis to describe the phenomena.

Sven7 11y ago
Ditch the tinge of conspiracy? How is he supposed to get clicks and pay his rent?
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  Hey this is serious stuff, the government is manipulating your brain without your consent, don't reduce it to crass commercialism.
  - Sven7 11y ago
    I am more worried about Kim Kardashian's mind control powers over the masses.
ianremsen 11y ago
We need to stop classifying whole swaths of ideas as junk because they sound too similar to 'conspiracy theories'. This dogma is unspeakably harmful to the truth and is easy to cultivate by those on the other end, by those who would be served better if the opposition were bearers of tinfoil, not bearers of bad news. Most of it is bullshit, sure, but most people are indeed 'sheep' (for lack of a better word), they don't do any sort of digging to figure out the truth for themselves. Whoever gets to them first earns the right to spread their own opinion, since the first opinion is the hardest to change.
- brc 11y ago
  'Tinfoil hat' and 'conspiracy theorist' are just debate-stopping names thrown around. This is obviously true because anyone who tries to introduce an idea typically feels compelled to put a disclaimer 'I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but' as a leader. The same pattern appears whenever whole topics of discussion are regarded as not allowed. It's the unmistakable signature of a move by someone to shut down debate using labels over arguments.

walterbell 11y ago

Edward Walker has a dissertation and book ("Grassroots for Hire") which includes data on modern-day commercial astroturfing, https://qualpolicomm.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/q-a-with-ed-walker-on-grassroots-for-hire/ https://qualpolicomm.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/q-a-with-ed-wa... "Walker examines the “back stage” work that public affairs professionals do to organize the “front stage” of public participation on behalf of various clients in part by incentivizing, coordinating, and orchestrating engagement ... the book does open up a new agenda .. on a variety of topics including public trust in advocacy groups (and its consequences) .. and also broader questions about the consequences of professionally-facilitated advocacy ... we also need to know more about how these campaigns affect corporate bottom lines, similar to how others have studied the effects of protests on stock prices."

notahacker 11y ago

Really? I'd have thought it was a pretty uncontroversial claim that government agencies were funding anti-communist media organizations in the middle of the Cold War (when, let's face it, they were doing it quite openly in many instances). I wouldn't be at all surprised to they are doing something similar with moderate Islamic organizations and interfaith dialogue groups (not to mention many anodyne business ventures with roots in the Middle East) today. But suggesting that censoring the anti-authoritarian playground that is Reddit or persuading Hacker Newsers of the virtues of the TSA are sufficiently high on their list of current national security priorities to dedicate manpower to in our current environment just seems... rather more of a stretch. If they are attempting to astroturf these particular corners of the internet it's something of an understatement to say they're not very good at it.

jgaxn 11y ago
Nice try, CIA.
- notahacker 11y ago
  Damn it, cover blown! When startup enthusiasts start joining ISIS in droves it'll be all your fault :-)
knowaveragejoe 11y ago
> But suggesting that censoring the anti-authoritarian playground that is Reddit or persuading Hacker Newsers of the virtues of the TSA are sufficiently high on their list of current national security priorities to dedicate manpower to in our current environment just seems... rather more of a stretch. > If they are attempting to astroturf these particular corners of the internet it's something of an understatement to say they're not very good at it. This is where I have trouble buying into this being present on HN or reddit. For what purpose? What goal are they pursuing?
- socceroos 11y ago
  Surely the same goal as everywhere else? To shape the minds of people.

AndyMcConachie 11y ago

For something a bit more concrete. Take a look at what IARPA is funding and has funded in the past. http://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs http://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs This may not go far in answering your questions regarding government funded sock puppets, but it gives an idea of what they're interested in. Basically they're interested in damn near everything, and they're willing to spend large sums of money investigating what works.