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http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/09/26/written-testimony-cbp-and-ice-house-homeland-security-subcommittee-border-and http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/09/26/written-test

http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/09/26/written-testimony-cbp-and-ice-house-homeland-security-subcommittee-border-and http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/09/26/written-testimony-cbp-and... The CBP is cooperating with Canada to exchange information at border posts in real time about whom to permit to enter or leave over land borders and pressuring Mexico to join. Tracking is already in place. Secret prohibition on leaving by air is already in place for selected persons.

mikeash 11y ago
That's all about tracking when visitors exit in order to find out who has stayed longer that they're allowed to, nothing about preventing US citizens from leaving. Unless I missed the pertinent bit? In which case, could you point it out?
- schoen 11y ago
  I also looked at that testimony and it doesn't seem like the agreement proposes to prevent people from exiting. The U.S. government seems to generally support UDHR article 13(2) ("Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country") and ICCPR article 12(2) ("Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own"). The no-fly list definitely can be a serious problem for this, although people on it often can leave by boat or overland -- though they might have trouble getting the money or necessary visas to do so.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    When it comes to people overstaying their visas, I think the government wants them to leave. But they get barred from coming back, so the government wants to know about it, and they also want to track people leaving on time so they can know who's staying too long and hasn't left yet.
    - schoen 11y ago
      It seems like the government's willingness to spend money or create inconveniences in order to learn more about overstays has been pretty limited, and also that they care a lot more about overstays from poor countries than from rich countries. (I think some people in Congress are really upset about it, but it just doesn't look like the immigration authorities cares that much compared to the controls at the borders and ports of entry.) Also, some incidents of investigating and attempting to deport overstays who were deeply integrated into communities and clearly doing super-productive things have led to bad PR for immigration authorities, which could be another reason those authorities are incentivized not to get too good at it (though influenced by factors like what part of the country, where the people have migrated from, what their socioeconomic status is, and others).

mikeash 11y ago

That's all about tracking when visitors exit in order to find out who has stayed longer that they're allowed to, nothing about preventing US citizens from leaving. Unless I missed the pertinent bit? In which case, could you point it out?

schoen 11y ago
I also looked at that testimony and it doesn't seem like the agreement proposes to prevent people from exiting. The U.S. government seems to generally support UDHR article 13(2) ("Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country") and ICCPR article 12(2) ("Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own"). The no-fly list definitely can be a serious problem for this, although people on it often can leave by boat or overland -- though they might have trouble getting the money or necessary visas to do so.
- mikeash 11y ago
  When it comes to people overstaying their visas, I think the government wants them to leave. But they get barred from coming back, so the government wants to know about it, and they also want to track people leaving on time so they can know who's staying too long and hasn't left yet.
  - schoen 11y ago
    It seems like the government's willingness to spend money or create inconveniences in order to learn more about overstays has been pretty limited, and also that they care a lot more about overstays from poor countries than from rich countries. (I think some people in Congress are really upset about it, but it just doesn't look like the immigration authorities cares that much compared to the controls at the borders and ports of entry.) Also, some incidents of investigating and attempting to deport overstays who were deeply integrated into communities and clearly doing super-productive things have led to bad PR for immigration authorities, which could be another reason those authorities are incentivized not to get too good at it (though influenced by factors like what part of the country, where the people have migrated from, what their socioeconomic status is, and others).