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By similar token, George Bush and Co. were also pragmatic in dealing with global warming issues.

by nsoonhui 17y ago

hga 17y ago
So was the Senate during the Clinton Administration when they preemptively voted down Kyoto with 97 against.
- encoderer 17y ago
  So was the ^Republican Senate... Fixed that.
  - hga 17y ago
    All that means is that they were able to ensure that the vote got scheduled. By my count 41 Democrats nonetheless voted for it (after looking it up I see that it was 95-0, with 1 Republican and 4 Democrats not voting). It's also worth noting that with a 60 vote (or votes with) Democratic majority cap and trade is getting exactly nowhere in the current Senate.
    - encoderer 17y ago
      There's a lot of game theory in the Senate. It's not a secret ballot with a gag order. So if you're a senator, it makes no sense to make a risky vote on a bill that you know has no chance to pass. About Cap And Trade... Frankly, the bill is an atrocious gift to investment bankers that will make billions in this new market. But lets ignore that. Let's talk about why a 60-democrat senate cannot pass this or other Progressive legislation. Here it is: The country has gotten more liberal in the last 10 years. But it's not 60% liberal. Not even close. Democratic gains have been easy gains, politically speaking. The party ran conservative Dems in conservative districts. All in all I'd rather have a conservative dem than a liberal republican -- at least a conservative dem will contribute to the Democrats having control over committees and procedure. But what I really want -- and what I think this country needs -- is a progressive. Democratic, Green, Indy, whatever. But, a progressive. Everybody acts like Democrats should be able to pass progressive legislation just because there's 60 Dems in the Senate. Count the number of Progressives. The work that needs to be done -- the activism and organization -- is to promote the progressive agenda at the grassroots level. We need to attack on all fronts to move the country left, the same way the Conservative trio of the Reagan Admin, Think Tanks, and new Media (including direct mail and, say, Rush Limbaugh) moved the country right in the 80's and 90's.
      - hga 17y ago
        Cap and trade is "is an atrocious gift to investment bankers that will make billions in this new market." Indeed, and who will then share the wealth with those in the government who will continue to allow that. Much better than a carbon tax, the possibilities for graft are endless. The biggest danger by far in "environmentalism" is when big business combines with the Greens, e.g. it's no accident that the CFC ban resulted in a change from long out of patent refrigerants to new proprietary ones (or so I've read). BTW, are you sure the country has gone left? A bit over 30% self-identify as conservative, a bit over 20% as liberal, the last time I checked. Yeah, there was a general revulsion over 21st century Republican excesses and failures, but that's not the same time. Firing a Republican Congress is not necessarily the same thing as electing a Democratic one. As for your program ... I can't honestly say I wish you luck, but you do have your work cut out for you. Clinton convinced the nation that trusting Democrats was not insane (we could take a vacation from history (foreign policy) and he did alright with economic policy, especially after 1994, and then there's "ending welfare as we know it", which has already been mostly reversed). Team Obama and the Congressional leadership are ruining that, and under an at least partly false Progressive banner.

By similar token, George Bush and Co. were also pragmatic in dealing with global warming issues.

hga 17y ago

So was the Senate during the Clinton Administration when they preemptively voted down Kyoto with 97 against.

encoderer 17y ago
So was the ^Republican Senate... Fixed that.
- hga 17y ago
  All that means is that they were able to ensure that the vote got scheduled. By my count 41 Democrats nonetheless voted for it (after looking it up I see that it was 95-0, with 1 Republican and 4 Democrats not voting). It's also worth noting that with a 60 vote (or votes with) Democratic majority cap and trade is getting exactly nowhere in the current Senate.
  - encoderer 17y ago
    There's a lot of game theory in the Senate. It's not a secret ballot with a gag order. So if you're a senator, it makes no sense to make a risky vote on a bill that you know has no chance to pass. About Cap And Trade... Frankly, the bill is an atrocious gift to investment bankers that will make billions in this new market. But lets ignore that. Let's talk about why a 60-democrat senate cannot pass this or other Progressive legislation. Here it is: The country has gotten more liberal in the last 10 years. But it's not 60% liberal. Not even close. Democratic gains have been easy gains, politically speaking. The party ran conservative Dems in conservative districts. All in all I'd rather have a conservative dem than a liberal republican -- at least a conservative dem will contribute to the Democrats having control over committees and procedure. But what I really want -- and what I think this country needs -- is a progressive. Democratic, Green, Indy, whatever. But, a progressive. Everybody acts like Democrats should be able to pass progressive legislation just because there's 60 Dems in the Senate. Count the number of Progressives. The work that needs to be done -- the activism and organization -- is to promote the progressive agenda at the grassroots level. We need to attack on all fronts to move the country left, the same way the Conservative trio of the Reagan Admin, Think Tanks, and new Media (including direct mail and, say, Rush Limbaugh) moved the country right in the 80's and 90's.
    - hga 17y ago
      Cap and trade is "is an atrocious gift to investment bankers that will make billions in this new market." Indeed, and who will then share the wealth with those in the government who will continue to allow that. Much better than a carbon tax, the possibilities for graft are endless. The biggest danger by far in "environmentalism" is when big business combines with the Greens, e.g. it's no accident that the CFC ban resulted in a change from long out of patent refrigerants to new proprietary ones (or so I've read). BTW, are you sure the country has gone left? A bit over 30% self-identify as conservative, a bit over 20% as liberal, the last time I checked. Yeah, there was a general revulsion over 21st century Republican excesses and failures, but that's not the same time. Firing a Republican Congress is not necessarily the same thing as electing a Democratic one. As for your program ... I can't honestly say I wish you luck, but you do have your work cut out for you. Clinton convinced the nation that trusting Democrats was not insane (we could take a vacation from history (foreign policy) and he did alright with economic policy, especially after 1994, and then there's "ending welfare as we know it", which has already been mostly reversed). Team Obama and the Congressional leadership are ruining that, and under an at least partly false Progressive banner.