6 ms·

Finding a talented EE for 75K/year seems like an impossible endeavor (if I read this correctly)

officialchicken 11y ago
Finding an injection mold with tooling for 5K is also in the realm of impossible (and probably unusable if found), certainly for PCB enclosures.
- jkestner 11y ago
  For one part? You can get tooling for less than that at Protomold in Minneasota (the higher per-part cost is often worth the lessened risk if it's your first go-round), and easily in China.
  - officialchicken 11y ago
    I know and you know that 2-piece molds are cheap around the world - but does the buyer/typical HN reader know the difference between, say, O-2 and 6063 when tooling? Can Protomold in Minneasota rotoshill my parts?
    - jkestner 11y ago
      For most hardware startups their first time, who cares if they're using aluminum tooling? They're going to learn from their first iteration while staying solvent, and they'll never hit enough volume to worry about the tool life. I don't know what rotoshilling is but manage to produce hardware anyway. A problem I see is that first-timers think they have to act like the big boys, and the big boys design complex assemblies and go to China. (I wouldn't unless you have the money to either make an expensive mistake, or to hire someone with experience.)
runako 11y ago
They have this person budgeted at $80k/year (the figures are amortized over the time to develop the first run of 5k). $80k + founding stock may be reasonable (though possibly not in SF).
rubidium 11y ago
Not in the midwest, or many other parts of the country. Check Glassdoor for rough numbers. Salaries are reasonable, cost with overhead is questionable. Long story short on all this, if you've never made hardware before and are going to make hardware, take the risk with other peoples money... if at all.
- bsbechtel 11y ago
  I'd be curious to learn how VCs value hardware startups vs software considering this and all the other risks.
strayptr 11y ago
Does it cost $150k/yr to hire someone you're paying $75k/yr? I've heard the fully-loaded cost of an employee is about 2x their salary, but I'm interested to know what the fully-loaded cost of a startup employee is. At the minimum, an employer would probably need to pay for health insurance, for example. Even if the benefits aren't very good, the cost is higher than someone's salary. The article says the cost with overhead is 1.25x, but is that realistic?
- mahyarm 11y ago
  My simulated metric was something like %133, which another person on payroll said that was pretty accurate. So there isn't hidden information when calculating this stuff. Think of: - Health Insurances ($500/mo)? - The other half of payroll taxes (~%8) - Food benefits ($10/day in snacks, $15/meal served) - Office rental & upkeep costs - 401k program costs (yes, they charge employers for this) - HR Costs
mbesto 11y ago
I know the EE space well in SF Bay Area (source - I was an internal recruiter for a hardware based startup). EE generally sits between 70-90k (but have seen people demand $120k), whereas software developers (especially mobile) is more like 90-120k (and for top talent sits around $150-200k). Depending on the financial health (i.e. funding) of the company, the full cost of an employee can range from 1.25x-1.80x their base salary. Hardware startups generally are stingy on their cost structure (and therefore probably skimp on benefits, bringing them down to 1.25x) because the cost structure is so high relative to software. For example, tooling costs could vary between $100-250k which is terribly difficult to estimate when you don't know the design or demand of your final product. The difference of $100k is...you guessed it...equivalent to a full additional human resource. Resource planning for hardware startups is scary. I know for a fact finding talented EE people is possible at $75k, and that same level talent would most likely cost $100k for a software dev. Interestingly, there is a decent supply of EE talent out there, however due the varying degree of hardware applications finding the right person is more difficult than it seems on the surface.
- ChuckMcM 11y ago
  But if your an EE and a software dev can you get 75 + 100 or $175K ? :-) One of the best advice my Dad ever gave me when I was thinking about majors in college was that you could program computers with an EE or a CS degree but without an EE degree they probably wouldn't let you build/design them. The math and physics were, to my taste, more difficult but I got tremendous satisfaction in being able to understand a computer from the PN junction of its transistors, to the process model of its operating system.
  - officialchicken 11y ago
    You don't need a degree for common sense. My parent spout a lot of the same nonsense. Just who exactly are these "they" gatekeepers the Boomers keep referring to? Pretty sure "they" are the same keepers of great wisdom such as "Housing prices will always rise", and "Work hard, you'll get a pension and gold watch," sorts of people. Not intentionally wrong, but definitely behind the times. Want to make a computer? WE don't need "them" to gatekeep their own bullshit anymore. Everthing, including fabs has been virtualized and is available online. Funding, PCB design and layout, soft-hard your FPGA ASIC designs, etc, etc, etc. Make your tradeoffs same as the rest of us, but don't think for a second that you must have "them" to make that computer. I know it's not really that easy (my parents spout the same nonsense all the time, but I love them nonetheless), but try to surround yourself with enablers not gatekeepers. And be able to quickly differentiate between the timeless and the boomer knowledge.
jkestner 11y ago
It isn't, but depending on how involved the design is, hiring a consulting engineer can save you money.
pnathan 11y ago
Not at all, out of the coastal areas (and maybe even in the coastal areas). It's a harder course than software, but pays worse.
dpeck 11y ago
In my experience, my friends got EE/CmpE degrees are harder to find, but much cheaper to hire than CS. I don't think they have the same "hustle" baked into their profession that CS/programmers do and as such they move jobs less and tend to make less.

Finding an injection mold with tooling for 5K is also in the realm of impossible (and probably unusable if found), certainly for PCB enclosures.

jkestner 11y ago
For one part? You can get tooling for less than that at Protomold in Minneasota (the higher per-part cost is often worth the lessened risk if it's your first go-round), and easily in China.
- officialchicken 11y ago
  I know and you know that 2-piece molds are cheap around the world - but does the buyer/typical HN reader know the difference between, say, O-2 and 6063 when tooling? Can Protomold in Minneasota rotoshill my parts?
  - jkestner 11y ago
    For most hardware startups their first time, who cares if they're using aluminum tooling? They're going to learn from their first iteration while staying solvent, and they'll never hit enough volume to worry about the tool life. I don't know what rotoshilling is but manage to produce hardware anyway. A problem I see is that first-timers think they have to act like the big boys, and the big boys design complex assemblies and go to China. (I wouldn't unless you have the money to either make an expensive mistake, or to hire someone with experience.)

runako 11y ago

They have this person budgeted at $80k/year (the figures are amortized over the time to develop the first run of 5k). $80k + founding stock may be reasonable (though possibly not in SF).

rubidium 11y ago

Not in the midwest, or many other parts of the country. Check Glassdoor for rough numbers. Salaries are reasonable, cost with overhead is questionable. Long story short on all this, if you've never made hardware before and are going to make hardware, take the risk with other peoples money... if at all.

bsbechtel 11y ago
I'd be curious to learn how VCs value hardware startups vs software considering this and all the other risks.

strayptr 11y ago

Does it cost $150k/yr to hire someone you're paying $75k/yr? I've heard the fully-loaded cost of an employee is about 2x their salary, but I'm interested to know what the fully-loaded cost of a startup employee is. At the minimum, an employer would probably need to pay for health insurance, for example. Even if the benefits aren't very good, the cost is higher than someone's salary. The article says the cost with overhead is 1.25x, but is that realistic?

mahyarm 11y ago
My simulated metric was something like %133, which another person on payroll said that was pretty accurate. So there isn't hidden information when calculating this stuff. Think of: - Health Insurances ($500/mo)? - The other half of payroll taxes (~%8) - Food benefits ($10/day in snacks, $15/meal served) - Office rental & upkeep costs - 401k program costs (yes, they charge employers for this) - HR Costs

mbesto 11y ago

I know the EE space well in SF Bay Area (source - I was an internal recruiter for a hardware based startup). EE generally sits between 70-90k (but have seen people demand $120k), whereas software developers (especially mobile) is more like 90-120k (and for top talent sits around $150-200k). Depending on the financial health (i.e. funding) of the company, the full cost of an employee can range from 1.25x-1.80x their base salary. Hardware startups generally are stingy on their cost structure (and therefore probably skimp on benefits, bringing them down to 1.25x) because the cost structure is so high relative to software. For example, tooling costs could vary between $100-250k which is terribly difficult to estimate when you don't know the design or demand of your final product. The difference of $100k is...you guessed it...equivalent to a full additional human resource. Resource planning for hardware startups is scary. I know for a fact finding talented EE people is possible at $75k, and that same level talent would most likely cost $100k for a software dev. Interestingly, there is a decent supply of EE talent out there, however due the varying degree of hardware applications finding the right person is more difficult than it seems on the surface.

ChuckMcM 11y ago
But if your an EE and a software dev can you get 75 + 100 or $175K ? :-) One of the best advice my Dad ever gave me when I was thinking about majors in college was that you could program computers with an EE or a CS degree but without an EE degree they probably wouldn't let you build/design them. The math and physics were, to my taste, more difficult but I got tremendous satisfaction in being able to understand a computer from the PN junction of its transistors, to the process model of its operating system.
- officialchicken 11y ago
  You don't need a degree for common sense. My parent spout a lot of the same nonsense. Just who exactly are these "they" gatekeepers the Boomers keep referring to? Pretty sure "they" are the same keepers of great wisdom such as "Housing prices will always rise", and "Work hard, you'll get a pension and gold watch," sorts of people. Not intentionally wrong, but definitely behind the times. Want to make a computer? WE don't need "them" to gatekeep their own bullshit anymore. Everthing, including fabs has been virtualized and is available online. Funding, PCB design and layout, soft-hard your FPGA ASIC designs, etc, etc, etc. Make your tradeoffs same as the rest of us, but don't think for a second that you must have "them" to make that computer. I know it's not really that easy (my parents spout the same nonsense all the time, but I love them nonetheless), but try to surround yourself with enablers not gatekeepers. And be able to quickly differentiate between the timeless and the boomer knowledge.

jkestner 11y ago

It isn't, but depending on how involved the design is, hiring a consulting engineer can save you money.

pnathan 11y ago

Not at all, out of the coastal areas (and maybe even in the coastal areas). It's a harder course than software, but pays worse.

dpeck 11y ago

In my experience, my friends got EE/CmpE degrees are harder to find, but much cheaper to hire than CS. I don't think they have the same "hustle" baked into their profession that CS/programmers do and as such they move jobs less and tend to make less.