6 ms·

Whether it was "over-interpreted" or not -- some stressors methylate genes, and those mutations are passed on to descendants. Does surviving the holocaust cou

by 1arity 11y ago

Whether it was "over-interpreted" or not -- some stressors methylate genes, and those mutations are passed on to descendants. Does surviving the holocaust count as a stressor? Yes. Would going through that probably involve a bundle of stressors, of which some are likely to produce epigenetic mutations? Likely. The author of this article is in the business of writing papers that are anti-trans-generational epigenetic inheritance. The author either doesn't believe it is possible, or doesn't believe to have seen evidence for it yet. It's a useful counterpoint to the majority opinion, tho it's very much the opinion of someone peddling a particular line that happens to be the line their in the business of writing papers about. The most interesting thing in this study was that the descendants of those who had experienced the holocaust seemed to have become more immune to the stressors their ancestors faced. That's a pretty clear case of the genome responding by becoming more fit, the occurrence of which has evolutionary advantage.

madaxe_again 11y ago
I wonder what an similar survey of the genetics of Palestinians living under occupation for five decades would show - and whether the epigenetic effect not only makes people more "fit" for dealing with trauma, but perhaps desensitised when it comes to inflicting trauma on others.
- tome 11y ago
  That snide comment seems unnecessary.
- tormeh 11y ago
  As bad as the Israeli occupation is, it's not even in the same order of magnitude in terms of per-human suffering.
  - leaveyou 11y ago
    How did you measure the suffering ? If you just guesstimate the magnitude of the suffering I try a guesstimation too: In my opinion 4.5 years of intense suffering are in the same order of magnitude with 45 years of not so intense suffering. Unless some suffering is way more important than other suffering. I don't know.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 11y ago
      Depends on scale, 3x or 100x both fail the 4.5 to 45 test. PS: The reality is it's mostly propaganda right now, if things where as bad as generally portrayed you would see a lot of immigration. (ex: syrian refugees)
      - sanderjd 11y ago
        What evidence are you basing your reality on? Have you been there? Is there some on-the-ground reporting you trust that presents that view? Or are you only extrapolating from the relative lack of refugees? If so, there are lots of potential confounding variables, the most obvious being the relative tightness of borders in different areas.
    - omonra 11y ago
      You might also count the % or # of non-combatant population that was intentionally killed. I also think that if palestinians were really suffering, they would agree to the terms offered to them. Repeatedly. The fact that they keep refusing to live in peace shows that things aren't all that bad. Here is one fact - they are one of the most obese people on the planet: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164.
      - oldmanjay 11y ago
        oh, I didn't realize they tend to fat. I guess they've earned whatever terms Israel wants them to accept.
        omonra 11y ago
        No, they lost a war. That's the reason someone accepts terms they don't like. Them being fat just shows that there's clearly enough food to get fat off of.
  - throwaway1967 11y ago
    Why don't you compare them both side by side with factual documentation and citations, so that we can have a real debate about which one, the Jewish holocaust or the Palestinian Holocaust, is truly the worst? Let this be my offer to anyone that wants to debate this as I know, after having read extensively and bookmarked citations and highlighted notes, that I can easily defend the idea that the Palestinian Holocaust as committed by Israelis was much worse than the treatment that potentially-communist Jews got in Nazi Germany. I'd also like to remind people that not only was there a Transfer Agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist Jews (who care not one iota for the life of Jews) called Haavara Agreement, but several times before and after that, Germany offered to release the Jews (or rather, divert their traffic towards another direction) if the anyone (be the US, or the Zionists, or whoever) reimbursed Germany for the costs associated with the removal. The Zionists, not caring about Jews, repeatedly refused such offers, to such an extreme as to put in writing that their reason for declining such offers was that "only those ethnic groups who will have suffered terribly throughout this war will have an opportunity to participate in the border claims that inevitably follow the armistice and peace treaties of every end of war". In other words, this select group of people who took upon them to speak for all Jews (and hence started the association between anti-Zionism and anti-Jewish sentiment, something that any Hasidim Jew will tell you is nonsense) is greatly and directly responsible for not taking up on offers to save the people they are supposed to care about. I say all of this with full knowledge I will be misinterpreted by many gentiles that are quick to assign hatred to dry analysis. However, I see and hope that Jews will start to wake up to this mafia that smears the name of Jews worldwide by claiming to speak for them. Jews, like everyone else and possibly more so, are subject to group pressure, which is why very few speak against Zionism, why the Hasidim are in such small number as compared to pro-Israel Jews, and why the media is careful not to show the Hasidim Jews protesting in NYC against Zionism and Israel every single time CNN is shooting outside. Camera staff and video editors work extra hard during those coverages to crop the Hasidim Jews protesting just enough so that part of their banners still show (as if to say, there were people outside holding anti-Israel signs) but not enough that we can see that really, a bunch of Jews are against this mafia, but they don't speak out because they don't see more of their brethren doing the same, thanks to the media.
stdbrouw 11y ago
> Does surviving the holocaust count as a stressor? Yes. Would going through that probably involve a bundle of stressors, of which some are likely to produce epigenetic mutations? Likely. So because the conclusion of the original study is probably sort-of-maybe okay-ish, we can excuse the shoddy research that was performed to get to that conclusion? I don't think that's how science works. The final paragraph of the post reads > Every week there are uninterpretable epigenetics studies published, the Holocaust study is merely one of many, these authors are merely following prevailing beliefs in over-interpreting their data. However, every such study damages the ‘brand’ of epigenetics a little more. If we want human disease epigenetics to be sustainable as a field of research, we have got to start to do substantially better in designing, executing, interpreting, reviewing and funding these studies. Being afraid that bad research might damage the reputation of the entire field of epigenetics doesn't seem like something I'd worry about too much if I didn't believe in epigenetics as a valid object of scientific study.
- nextos 11y ago
  While the study might not be well designed and interpreted, may I ask why you don't believe in epigenetics?
  - tomhoward 11y ago
    may I ask why you don't believe in epigenetics? That's not a question based in science. It's not about beliefs, it's about evidence. Speaking for myself, I've taken a strong interest in epigenetics due to my own health experiences and general curiosity. I find some of the hypotheses around epigenetics to be compelling, including that of generational inheritance of trauma, which is at issue here. But hard data is lacking, and I hope to see more rigorous studies that produce more solid evidence that can enable us to better understand the issue. Someone who hasn't heavily researched epigenetics or any other topic is perfectly entitled to take the null hypothesis position and demand better evidence before adopting a different position.
    - k__ 11y ago
      Epigenetics sound more like another way of mutation to me.
x0054 11y ago
The original article is using a sample group which is just much too small to make any reasonable statistical correlation, and in it's conclusion is making claims about causation without even being able to prove correlation.
Mikushi 11y ago
The only clear case is that of bad science.
sharkbot 11y ago
I would suggest a change to your first sentence: "some stressors methylate genes, and those same genes may be methylated in descendants." It is not a "mutation", at least not in the sense of a stable and heritable gene change. DNA methylation can be reversed, hence it is considered an epigenetic change, rather than a genetic change. The controversy over epigenetics seems to be about how long an epigenetic change can remain in a series of offspring, and how much of an impact an epigenetic change can have on the genetic material, the only long-term mechanism of heredity that we know of. Caveat: IANABiologist
daemonk 11y ago
There are good reasons to not think trans-generational epigenetic inheritance is possible though. The main piece of evidence is the reprogramming that occurs after fertilization where epigenetic marks are erased and re-established. You could maybe argue that that epigenetic machinery was transferred trans-generationally during cell division to help in re-establishing specific epigenetic marks, but that's not really an "informational" inheritance.

by 1arity 11y ago

madaxe_again 11y ago

I wonder what an similar survey of the genetics of Palestinians living under occupation for five decades would show - and whether the epigenetic effect not only makes people more "fit" for dealing with trauma, but perhaps desensitised when it comes to inflicting trauma on others.

tome 11y ago
That snide comment seems unnecessary.
tormeh 11y ago
As bad as the Israeli occupation is, it's not even in the same order of magnitude in terms of per-human suffering.
- leaveyou 11y ago
  How did you measure the suffering ? If you just guesstimate the magnitude of the suffering I try a guesstimation too: In my opinion 4.5 years of intense suffering are in the same order of magnitude with 45 years of not so intense suffering. Unless some suffering is way more important than other suffering. I don't know.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 11y ago
    Depends on scale, 3x or 100x both fail the 4.5 to 45 test. PS: The reality is it's mostly propaganda right now, if things where as bad as generally portrayed you would see a lot of immigration. (ex: syrian refugees)
    - sanderjd 11y ago
      What evidence are you basing your reality on? Have you been there? Is there some on-the-ground reporting you trust that presents that view? Or are you only extrapolating from the relative lack of refugees? If so, there are lots of potential confounding variables, the most obvious being the relative tightness of borders in different areas.
  - omonra 11y ago
    You might also count the % or # of non-combatant population that was intentionally killed. I also think that if palestinians were really suffering, they would agree to the terms offered to them. Repeatedly. The fact that they keep refusing to live in peace shows that things aren't all that bad. Here is one fact - they are one of the most obese people on the planet: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164.
    - oldmanjay 11y ago
      oh, I didn't realize they tend to fat. I guess they've earned whatever terms Israel wants them to accept.
      - omonra 11y ago
        No, they lost a war. That's the reason someone accepts terms they don't like. Them being fat just shows that there's clearly enough food to get fat off of.
- throwaway1967 11y ago
  Why don't you compare them both side by side with factual documentation and citations, so that we can have a real debate about which one, the Jewish holocaust or the Palestinian Holocaust, is truly the worst? Let this be my offer to anyone that wants to debate this as I know, after having read extensively and bookmarked citations and highlighted notes, that I can easily defend the idea that the Palestinian Holocaust as committed by Israelis was much worse than the treatment that potentially-communist Jews got in Nazi Germany. I'd also like to remind people that not only was there a Transfer Agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist Jews (who care not one iota for the life of Jews) called Haavara Agreement, but several times before and after that, Germany offered to release the Jews (or rather, divert their traffic towards another direction) if the anyone (be the US, or the Zionists, or whoever) reimbursed Germany for the costs associated with the removal. The Zionists, not caring about Jews, repeatedly refused such offers, to such an extreme as to put in writing that their reason for declining such offers was that "only those ethnic groups who will have suffered terribly throughout this war will have an opportunity to participate in the border claims that inevitably follow the armistice and peace treaties of every end of war". In other words, this select group of people who took upon them to speak for all Jews (and hence started the association between anti-Zionism and anti-Jewish sentiment, something that any Hasidim Jew will tell you is nonsense) is greatly and directly responsible for not taking up on offers to save the people they are supposed to care about. I say all of this with full knowledge I will be misinterpreted by many gentiles that are quick to assign hatred to dry analysis. However, I see and hope that Jews will start to wake up to this mafia that smears the name of Jews worldwide by claiming to speak for them. Jews, like everyone else and possibly more so, are subject to group pressure, which is why very few speak against Zionism, why the Hasidim are in such small number as compared to pro-Israel Jews, and why the media is careful not to show the Hasidim Jews protesting in NYC against Zionism and Israel every single time CNN is shooting outside. Camera staff and video editors work extra hard during those coverages to crop the Hasidim Jews protesting just enough so that part of their banners still show (as if to say, there were people outside holding anti-Israel signs) but not enough that we can see that really, a bunch of Jews are against this mafia, but they don't speak out because they don't see more of their brethren doing the same, thanks to the media.

stdbrouw 11y ago

> Does surviving the holocaust count as a stressor? Yes. Would going through that probably involve a bundle of stressors, of which some are likely to produce epigenetic mutations? Likely. So because the conclusion of the original study is probably sort-of-maybe okay-ish, we can excuse the shoddy research that was performed to get to that conclusion? I don't think that's how science works. The final paragraph of the post reads > Every week there are uninterpretable epigenetics studies published, the Holocaust study is merely one of many, these authors are merely following prevailing beliefs in over-interpreting their data. However, every such study damages the ‘brand’ of epigenetics a little more. If we want human disease epigenetics to be sustainable as a field of research, we have got to start to do substantially better in designing, executing, interpreting, reviewing and funding these studies. Being afraid that bad research might damage the reputation of the entire field of epigenetics doesn't seem like something I'd worry about too much if I didn't believe in epigenetics as a valid object of scientific study.

nextos 11y ago
While the study might not be well designed and interpreted, may I ask why you don't believe in epigenetics?
- tomhoward 11y ago
  may I ask why you don't believe in epigenetics? That's not a question based in science. It's not about beliefs, it's about evidence. Speaking for myself, I've taken a strong interest in epigenetics due to my own health experiences and general curiosity. I find some of the hypotheses around epigenetics to be compelling, including that of generational inheritance of trauma, which is at issue here. But hard data is lacking, and I hope to see more rigorous studies that produce more solid evidence that can enable us to better understand the issue. Someone who hasn't heavily researched epigenetics or any other topic is perfectly entitled to take the null hypothesis position and demand better evidence before adopting a different position.
  - k__ 11y ago
    Epigenetics sound more like another way of mutation to me.

x0054 11y ago

The original article is using a sample group which is just much too small to make any reasonable statistical correlation, and in it's conclusion is making claims about causation without even being able to prove correlation.

Mikushi 11y ago

The only clear case is that of bad science.

sharkbot 11y ago

I would suggest a change to your first sentence: "some stressors methylate genes, and those same genes may be methylated in descendants." It is not a "mutation", at least not in the sense of a stable and heritable gene change. DNA methylation can be reversed, hence it is considered an epigenetic change, rather than a genetic change. The controversy over epigenetics seems to be about how long an epigenetic change can remain in a series of offspring, and how much of an impact an epigenetic change can have on the genetic material, the only long-term mechanism of heredity that we know of. Caveat: IANABiologist

daemonk 11y ago

There are good reasons to not think trans-generational epigenetic inheritance is possible though. The main piece of evidence is the reprogramming that occurs after fertilization where epigenetic marks are erased and re-established. You could maybe argue that that epigenetic machinery was transferred trans-generationally during cell division to help in re-establishing specific epigenetic marks, but that's not really an "informational" inheritance.