4 ms·

I imagine this sentiment is going to be very unpopular here, but as a parent of a ten-year-old, I find this kind of fetishizing of the accomplishments of ten-ye

I imagine this sentiment is going to be very unpopular here, but as a parent of a ten-year-old, I find this kind of fetishizing of the accomplishments of ten-year-olds to be disturbing. I think it's great that Carmack's son has taken an interest in programming at such a young age, but why need this be so public? Not only does this do his son a disservice (who, despite his precociousness, is not old enough to understand how cruel the internet can be -- or how long its memory), it also does other children a disservice by implicitly encouraging absurdly aspirational parenting. Witness this comment, found in this HN discussion: I am so jealous when I hear these damn stories. Another 5 or more years to go. Does anyone have a book about the method they develop? I bet that, following it to the T or not, it would sell here with the HN crowd. It's great to inspire your kids to program (computational thinking is literacy, after all), but it's deeply misguided to believe that normal ten-year-olds exhibit the kind of intense interest that Carmack's son seems to display here -- and indeed, believing that a "method" can yield this kind of interest in a child can result in the kind of paternal (or maternal) disappointment that does lasting emotional harm. Good on Carmack's son for showing such interest and talent, but let's encourage that to be fostered relatively privately -- and thereby allow him to be what he is first and foremost: a ten-year-old kid.

toothbrush 11y ago
I am glad you have vocalised this sentiment. I have been feeling vaguely uneasy about this whole thread, and honestly i had put it down to plain jealousy (“if only my childhood environment hadn't consisted of accountant parents but programmers”). I think it's more than that though, this morning i already had an offline chat with someone about it, and came to the conclusion that it was perhaps setting up unreasonable expectations for those kids who don't have rockstar and/or programmer parents. You've hit the nail on the head, in my humble opinion. Let the kid decide. Maybe he wants to become an astronaut instead, or a penniless country musician. We'll see, all in good time.
- amag 11y ago
  I discovered programming as a ten year old because I grew tired of the games I had for my C64. After all C64 BASIC was there all along, behind the scenes, just waiting for me. Today when kids grow tired of the games they have, they open the App Store and download another one. There's no programming language "behind the scenes" waiting for to be discovered by a bored ten year old. I totally agree that kids should decide and that as parents we should never force them to fulfill our dreams. But at the same time as adults we still need to show them what options there are, guide them through obstacles and push them a little when it's boring or scary in order to make them grow. Far too often today I see parents (myself no exception though I try no to) treat their children as small adults, as if they already possess all the knowledge and skill to make informed decisions about what's best for them. When I take the time to really listen to my kids it always strikes me how much their view of the world differs from mine. It's easy to think that a certain event we experience together has the same impact on us, but a lot of the things I consider trivial has a lasting effect on my kids. I guess what I want to say is that it's easy to say "if the kid wants to program, she will program" but it doesn't always work that way if she doesn't know that you can program.
mordrax 11y ago
As a Chinese, this is pretty normal. In fact I'd push him to perform in sports and academics as well. On a more serious note, sadly the majority of Chinese/Asian parents i know would take the first sentence seriously.
- draugadrotten 11y ago
  So stereotypes and racism is OK on HN, as long as the victims are Asian?
  - yoz-y 11y ago
    Is it considered a racist stereotype if it is true though? My wife is Chinese and most of her stories do corroborate what parent said. In big cities the school system is very demanding and if you want to land in a good college you have to land in a good high school and so on. With an extremely competitive job market it is not unconceivable that parents push their kids very hard.
    - PavlovsCat 11y ago
      Sure, but there is still a difference between, say, "as someone living in a certain section of a highly competitive environment", and "as a Chinese", since the latter could at least be read to imply that it's a genetic trait, which would be obviously silly. Of course it can also be a shorthand for the more verbose way to put it, but I suspect people here are talking more about descent than the society they are most tightly integrated into.
  - lookbothways 11y ago
    >As a Chinese
- sreejithr 11y ago
  Couldn't resist :) Asian parent: "You doctor yet?" Kid: "No" Parent: "Talk to me when you doctor!!11" (Family guy reference)
adrianN 11y ago
If you make your kids learn something from a very early age, I think it's reasonable to assume that they'll become pretty good at it. Look for example at Laszlo Polgar's daughters [1]. Most violinists that I know where also forced by their parents to learn the instrument. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r
- bcantrill 11y ago
  Wow, I hope you're not serious -- this kind of intense parental pressure is much more likely to detonate in early adulthood than it is to generate whatever the hell it is you're trying to generate. There are many examples of prodigious kids that have profound struggles in adulthood, but one particularly poignant example is Todd Marinovich[1], who has since become an excellent speaker on the peril of pushing youngsters too hard. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Marinovich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Marinovich
- louithethrid 11y ago
  If you are forced to learn something at a very early age, you will drop it like a hot potatoe the day you get free choice. If you are forced even more, that Resistance to the "system" attitude and the results, might even become part of the core personality. Force is used by those who can not encourage by example. If you can encourage by example, all that force will lead to someone who is very good at circumventing bigot rule-systems. Who will then pass that attitude to his son/her daughter.
ericssmith 11y ago
Wow. I think you missed the point there. He is extolling the virtues of Racket and Dr. Racket. I agree with him, and I think it needs a lot more evangelizing. My son is 6 tomorrow and is also using Dr. Racket to learn programming. I post on twitter and Facebook about it. I'm proud of my son. But more than that, I'm amazed at Racket as an environment for learning and teaching programming.

toothbrush 11y ago

I am glad you have vocalised this sentiment. I have been feeling vaguely uneasy about this whole thread, and honestly i had put it down to plain jealousy (“if only my childhood environment hadn't consisted of accountant parents but programmers”). I think it's more than that though, this morning i already had an offline chat with someone about it, and came to the conclusion that it was perhaps setting up unreasonable expectations for those kids who don't have rockstar and/or programmer parents. You've hit the nail on the head, in my humble opinion. Let the kid decide. Maybe he wants to become an astronaut instead, or a penniless country musician. We'll see, all in good time.

amag 11y ago
I discovered programming as a ten year old because I grew tired of the games I had for my C64. After all C64 BASIC was there all along, behind the scenes, just waiting for me. Today when kids grow tired of the games they have, they open the App Store and download another one. There's no programming language "behind the scenes" waiting for to be discovered by a bored ten year old. I totally agree that kids should decide and that as parents we should never force them to fulfill our dreams. But at the same time as adults we still need to show them what options there are, guide them through obstacles and push them a little when it's boring or scary in order to make them grow. Far too often today I see parents (myself no exception though I try no to) treat their children as small adults, as if they already possess all the knowledge and skill to make informed decisions about what's best for them. When I take the time to really listen to my kids it always strikes me how much their view of the world differs from mine. It's easy to think that a certain event we experience together has the same impact on us, but a lot of the things I consider trivial has a lasting effect on my kids. I guess what I want to say is that it's easy to say "if the kid wants to program, she will program" but it doesn't always work that way if she doesn't know that you can program.

mordrax 11y ago

As a Chinese, this is pretty normal. In fact I'd push him to perform in sports and academics as well. On a more serious note, sadly the majority of Chinese/Asian parents i know would take the first sentence seriously.

draugadrotten 11y ago
So stereotypes and racism is OK on HN, as long as the victims are Asian?
- yoz-y 11y ago
  Is it considered a racist stereotype if it is true though? My wife is Chinese and most of her stories do corroborate what parent said. In big cities the school system is very demanding and if you want to land in a good college you have to land in a good high school and so on. With an extremely competitive job market it is not unconceivable that parents push their kids very hard.
  - PavlovsCat 11y ago
    Sure, but there is still a difference between, say, "as someone living in a certain section of a highly competitive environment", and "as a Chinese", since the latter could at least be read to imply that it's a genetic trait, which would be obviously silly. Of course it can also be a shorthand for the more verbose way to put it, but I suspect people here are talking more about descent than the society they are most tightly integrated into.
- lookbothways 11y ago
  >As a Chinese
sreejithr 11y ago
Couldn't resist :) Asian parent: "You doctor yet?" Kid: "No" Parent: "Talk to me when you doctor!!11" (Family guy reference)

adrianN 11y ago

If you make your kids learn something from a very early age, I think it's reasonable to assume that they'll become pretty good at it. Look for example at Laszlo Polgar's daughters [1]. Most violinists that I know where also forced by their parents to learn the instrument. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r

bcantrill 11y ago
Wow, I hope you're not serious -- this kind of intense parental pressure is much more likely to detonate in early adulthood than it is to generate whatever the hell it is you're trying to generate. There are many examples of prodigious kids that have profound struggles in adulthood, but one particularly poignant example is Todd Marinovich[1], who has since become an excellent speaker on the peril of pushing youngsters too hard. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Marinovich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Marinovich
louithethrid 11y ago
If you are forced to learn something at a very early age, you will drop it like a hot potatoe the day you get free choice. If you are forced even more, that Resistance to the "system" attitude and the results, might even become part of the core personality. Force is used by those who can not encourage by example. If you can encourage by example, all that force will lead to someone who is very good at circumventing bigot rule-systems. Who will then pass that attitude to his son/her daughter.

ericssmith 11y ago

Wow. I think you missed the point there. He is extolling the virtues of Racket and Dr. Racket. I agree with him, and I think it needs a lot more evangelizing. My son is 6 tomorrow and is also using Dr. Racket to learn programming. I post on twitter and Facebook about it. I'm proud of my son. But more than that, I'm amazed at Racket as an environment for learning and teaching programming.