6 ms·

Although I hate communism, I find myself more in agreement with China than US policymakers with respect to war, trade, economic policy, and regulation. China se

by dpatru 17y ago

Although I hate communism, I find myself more in agreement with China than US policymakers with respect to war, trade, economic policy, and regulation. China seems more pro-freedom than the US. Case in point: by wrecking the Copenhagen deal, China has helped the cause of liberty in the western countries by making it harder for governments in increase taxes and regulations on its citizens.

rms 17y ago
I'm hesitant to start any argument in this thread, but... While I greatly respect China's economic system ("Socialism with Chinese characteristics"), there are very few definitions of freedom where China is more pro-freedom than the USA.
- maxklein 17y ago
  I went to china and the US: * Nobody questioned me on entry into china like I was a criminal * Policemen don't walk around with guns like they are ready to gun you down * When a girl removes her shirt, she she is not jailed in china * When I drink excessively and start acting the fool, I am treated like an idiot in china, not like a criminal I visited both countries. In china, people are happy and friendly. In American, people are trapped and unfriendly. China feels a lot freeer than the United States.
  - TeHCrAzY 17y ago
    When you were in China, you were shown only what you were meant to see. There are large portions of China which are unavaliable to tourists.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - papersmith 17y ago
      I'm not sure what you meant by unavailable to tourists. Nobody forces you to stay with a tour or anything, it's not like North Korea. Of course, if you stick to a guided-tour, you probably won't see too much. If you leave the city, you can find plenty of backpackers. The friendliness probably has more to do with the culture being more laid-back then political freedom.
    - sailormoon 17y ago
      What? Which areas? I suppose "tourists" are not allowed into govt facilities and military bases. Everywhere else is fair game. Disturbing you have collected 8 upvotes for this utter nonsense. I challenge you to name any area of the country permanently off limits to foreigners. China is hardly perfect but what you insinuate is just BS.
      - zzkt 17y ago
        While not "permanently off limits to foreigners", you might have difficulty travelling around parts of Tibet or Xinjiang for example without an official "guide".
        sailormoon 17y ago
        That might be true during periods of unrest, yes, as the government is concerned about media appearances. Basically, if the disturbance is making headlines overseas, you'll have difficulty gaining access. At any other time, though, it should be fine. It's not North Korea.
  - rms 17y ago
    I don't disagree that there are some definitions of freedom where China feels more free than the USA. However, I think you're missing the point. What about the Chinese peasant farmers that don't even have urban residency permits? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registration_in_mainland_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registra...
  - nir 17y ago
    Yeah, much in the same way that the South ca 1860 must've felt a lot freer and friendlier than, say, New York, provided you were white. Also, if you were upper class Englishman presumably no one bothered you on entry to India ca 1920, or made a fuss if you got a bit drunk. I suppose police would be quite nice to you as well. And all the natives seemed so friendly and happy.
    - dandelany 17y ago
      Exactly. I wish i could upvote this again. I'm assuming that, with a name like Max Klein, the parent is not a lower class Chinese citizen. You're lucky.
    - maxklein 17y ago
      What about if I could be mistaken for an arab, and my comment were made from that perspective?
  - kscaldef 17y ago
    I don't know where you visited in the US, but it doesn't sound at all like where I live. * Most people I encounter are happy and friendly, even the poor and unemployed. * I'm not accustomed to seeing police carrying anything more than a holstered service pistol. * Not only can women take off their shirts without being arrested, both men and women can legally be completely naked in public (in this state). * I've never seen anyone "treated like a criminal" for being drunk, so long as they aren't violent or otherwise harming other people. * I've never experienced more than cursory questions on entry to the US, with 1 exception: returning to the US on Sept 14, 2001 Personally, I've lived in and visited enough places around the world that I would never reach a judgment on what a place is really like based on a brief visit, especially not a country as large as the US or China.
    - Jach 17y ago
      > ... I would never reach a judgment on what a place is really like based on a brief visit, especially not a country as large as the US or China. Indeed. Personally I find the recitation of anecdotal evidence for how "free" a country is to be bollocks. Alright, so the country "feels" freer sometimes, but that's not a sound argument for its actual freedom.
    - jacoblyles 17y ago
      >* Not only can women take off their shirts without being arrested, both men and women can legally be completely naked in public. Have you tried this outside of a college campus? Pretty sure you can't.
      - kscaldef 17y ago
        You can in Oregon. Our courts have ruled that our state constitution's guarantee of freedom of expression includes public nudity. (There are some minor quibbles over the exact extent of this but there are several large scale naked events in Portland every year, as well as some well-known naked people who show up regularly around town. There's also been cases like people mowing their lawns naked, which the police can't do anything about even in the face of neighbors' complaints.)
    - 17y ago
- reedlaw 17y ago
  China is fast becoming freer while the US is headed in the opposite direction. Some examples of freedoms in China that are illegal in some or all US states: * I can get real milk (see http://www.realmilk.com/ http://www.realmilk.com/) delivered to my door. * Fireworks of all sizes and detonative power are readily available. * There is no prohibition on the sale of alcohol or cigarettes to minors. In addition: * You can start a new business with relative ease. * Uncomplicated income tax (no tax return, withholding, W2 forms, etc.) * Police are generally friendly and there is no fear of being unjustly tazed or beaten.
  - ars 17y ago
    "Police are generally friendly and there is no fear of being unjustly tazed or beaten." You are reading reddit and digg too much.
  - Evgeny 17y ago
    There is no prohibition on the sale of alcohol or cigarettes to minors. Is it some kind of sarcasm or is it considered a great freedom when the kids can poison themselves all they want? I'm ok with an adult drinking himself into an early grave, but a 10 year old kid might not clearly understand the consequences of drinking/smoking.
    - mrtron 17y ago
      As with many issues, I think it is a social problem and not a government issue. I think it is the role of parents and not the government to control what a 10 year old ingests.
      - noss 17y ago
        And what to you do when the parents have social problems themself that prevent them from being good parents?
  - thingie 17y ago
    Of course. "Real" milk. But there are also some downsides of no real regulation. Like… http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSPEK1127320080303 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSPEK1127320080303
dandelany 17y ago
This may be a side-effect of the Copenhagen failure, but it certainly wasn't an intended one. China borked the negotiations for the sake of money, power, and world dominance. Unfortunately, this seems to be the motivation behind much of the Chinese government's actions. On issues which do not threaten these goals, China may "seem pro-freedom". However, most of the important issues (free speech, rights of the accused, labor rights, religion, etc. etc.) do. And on those issues, they're decidedly less free.

by dpatru 17y ago

rms 17y ago

I'm hesitant to start any argument in this thread, but... While I greatly respect China's economic system ("Socialism with Chinese characteristics"), there are very few definitions of freedom where China is more pro-freedom than the USA.

maxklein 17y ago
I went to china and the US: * Nobody questioned me on entry into china like I was a criminal * Policemen don't walk around with guns like they are ready to gun you down * When a girl removes her shirt, she she is not jailed in china * When I drink excessively and start acting the fool, I am treated like an idiot in china, not like a criminal I visited both countries. In china, people are happy and friendly. In American, people are trapped and unfriendly. China feels a lot freeer than the United States.
- TeHCrAzY 17y ago
  When you were in China, you were shown only what you were meant to see. There are large portions of China which are unavaliable to tourists.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - papersmith 17y ago
    I'm not sure what you meant by unavailable to tourists. Nobody forces you to stay with a tour or anything, it's not like North Korea. Of course, if you stick to a guided-tour, you probably won't see too much. If you leave the city, you can find plenty of backpackers. The friendliness probably has more to do with the culture being more laid-back then political freedom.
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    What? Which areas? I suppose "tourists" are not allowed into govt facilities and military bases. Everywhere else is fair game. Disturbing you have collected 8 upvotes for this utter nonsense. I challenge you to name any area of the country permanently off limits to foreigners. China is hardly perfect but what you insinuate is just BS.
    - zzkt 17y ago
      While not "permanently off limits to foreigners", you might have difficulty travelling around parts of Tibet or Xinjiang for example without an official "guide".
      - sailormoon 17y ago
        That might be true during periods of unrest, yes, as the government is concerned about media appearances. Basically, if the disturbance is making headlines overseas, you'll have difficulty gaining access. At any other time, though, it should be fine. It's not North Korea.
- rms 17y ago
  I don't disagree that there are some definitions of freedom where China feels more free than the USA. However, I think you're missing the point. What about the Chinese peasant farmers that don't even have urban residency permits? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registration_in_mainland_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registra...
- nir 17y ago
  Yeah, much in the same way that the South ca 1860 must've felt a lot freer and friendlier than, say, New York, provided you were white. Also, if you were upper class Englishman presumably no one bothered you on entry to India ca 1920, or made a fuss if you got a bit drunk. I suppose police would be quite nice to you as well. And all the natives seemed so friendly and happy.
  - dandelany 17y ago
    Exactly. I wish i could upvote this again. I'm assuming that, with a name like Max Klein, the parent is not a lower class Chinese citizen. You're lucky.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    What about if I could be mistaken for an arab, and my comment were made from that perspective?
- kscaldef 17y ago
  I don't know where you visited in the US, but it doesn't sound at all like where I live. * Most people I encounter are happy and friendly, even the poor and unemployed. * I'm not accustomed to seeing police carrying anything more than a holstered service pistol. * Not only can women take off their shirts without being arrested, both men and women can legally be completely naked in public (in this state). * I've never seen anyone "treated like a criminal" for being drunk, so long as they aren't violent or otherwise harming other people. * I've never experienced more than cursory questions on entry to the US, with 1 exception: returning to the US on Sept 14, 2001 Personally, I've lived in and visited enough places around the world that I would never reach a judgment on what a place is really like based on a brief visit, especially not a country as large as the US or China.
  - Jach 17y ago
    > ... I would never reach a judgment on what a place is really like based on a brief visit, especially not a country as large as the US or China. Indeed. Personally I find the recitation of anecdotal evidence for how "free" a country is to be bollocks. Alright, so the country "feels" freer sometimes, but that's not a sound argument for its actual freedom.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    >* Not only can women take off their shirts without being arrested, both men and women can legally be completely naked in public. Have you tried this outside of a college campus? Pretty sure you can't.
    - kscaldef 17y ago
      You can in Oregon. Our courts have ruled that our state constitution's guarantee of freedom of expression includes public nudity. (There are some minor quibbles over the exact extent of this but there are several large scale naked events in Portland every year, as well as some well-known naked people who show up regularly around town. There's also been cases like people mowing their lawns naked, which the police can't do anything about even in the face of neighbors' complaints.)
  - 17y ago
reedlaw 17y ago
China is fast becoming freer while the US is headed in the opposite direction. Some examples of freedoms in China that are illegal in some or all US states: * I can get real milk (see http://www.realmilk.com/ http://www.realmilk.com/) delivered to my door. * Fireworks of all sizes and detonative power are readily available. * There is no prohibition on the sale of alcohol or cigarettes to minors. In addition: * You can start a new business with relative ease. * Uncomplicated income tax (no tax return, withholding, W2 forms, etc.) * Police are generally friendly and there is no fear of being unjustly tazed or beaten.
- ars 17y ago
  "Police are generally friendly and there is no fear of being unjustly tazed or beaten." You are reading reddit and digg too much.
- Evgeny 17y ago
  There is no prohibition on the sale of alcohol or cigarettes to minors. Is it some kind of sarcasm or is it considered a great freedom when the kids can poison themselves all they want? I'm ok with an adult drinking himself into an early grave, but a 10 year old kid might not clearly understand the consequences of drinking/smoking.
  - mrtron 17y ago
    As with many issues, I think it is a social problem and not a government issue. I think it is the role of parents and not the government to control what a 10 year old ingests.
    - noss 17y ago
      And what to you do when the parents have social problems themself that prevent them from being good parents?
- thingie 17y ago
  Of course. "Real" milk. But there are also some downsides of no real regulation. Like… http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSPEK1127320080303 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSPEK1127320080303

dandelany 17y ago

This may be a side-effect of the Copenhagen failure, but it certainly wasn't an intended one. China borked the negotiations for the sake of money, power, and world dominance. Unfortunately, this seems to be the motivation behind much of the Chinese government's actions. On issues which do not threaten these goals, China may "seem pro-freedom". However, most of the important issues (free speech, rights of the accused, labor rights, religion, etc. etc.) do. And on those issues, they're decidedly less free.