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Counter argument: Germany. Free and good public health care with additional private health care that is affordable. Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine

by nisa 11y ago

Counter argument: Germany. Free and good public health care with additional private health care that is affordable. Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Reasons that are often cited and that I've encountered are mostly due to more personal contact with the practitioner and some fear about big pharma. It's getting so out of hand that a lot of children are not vaccinated - e.g. Berlin Prenzelberg - a place where high income, high educated folks are a majority is a major problem spot. This is something different - at least in Western Europe.

raverbashing 11y ago
> Berlin Prenzelberg I think you mean Prenzlauer Berg (it's a neighborhood) But yeah, similar to the US
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
I've only been to Germany once and I noticed that I couldn't get painkillers I use in the US over the counter. Some are apparently prescription onlyc (at least in typical doses/bottle in the US), but of course homeopathic junk was on display and ready for sale. I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy. There's a real egg > chicken problem you're ignoring. edit: I was in a supermarket where selling drugs is illegal not a pharmacy, where it is legal. Still my point stands, if you're in pain you'll go with whats easier. Putting up barriers to access is a problem. Tylenol should be at the grocery store, not homeopathic junk. edit2: HN wont let me reply to some comments: I never understood this knee-jerk defense of the nanny state. Most nations don't have a problem with this, but Germany does and that encourages homeopathic nonsense in that culture, to the point of government funding of it. Lets stop making excuses for failed policymakers.
- kybernetyk 11y ago
  Fun fact: The public health insurance in Germany pays for prescribed homeopathic "meds". So by paying my insurance contributions I indirectly support that esoteric nonsense. Also Tylenol (which is called Paracetamol here) is available over the counter. But only in pharmacies. Just like every other pain medication (ibuprofen, aspirin, etc) which you can buy in other countries - even in the EU - in super markets. Germany is a "little" over regulated here.
- Udo 11y ago
  > I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy I'm all for liberalizing drug laws in Germany, but just for completeness' sake: Tylenol is a brand name for Paracetamol which is readily available over the counter without prescription in Germany, as is Ibuprofen (Advil), ASA (Aspirin), as well as other anti-inflammatories and analgesics. I believe a case could be made that on the heavier end of pain relief Metamizole (Novalgin) should also be transitioned to a prescription-free status, but there has been a widespread panic about its side effects at some point. Also, a distinction should be made between herbal remedies which actually produce some effect, such as valerian or volatile oils, and pure woo such as homeopathic preparations. The reason why supernatural "medicine" is so successful in Germany lies in the fact that "alternative practicioner" is considered an actual profession with deep ideological and historic roots in the country. Susceptible is pretty much anyone who strives to use only "natural" resources for living because they lack the scientific understanding to know that all substances are chemicals (a bad word in Germany), and they often don't have any capacity to even recognize the "alternative" treatment options are in fact based on magical thinking.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- idlewords 11y ago
  Tylenol is a bad example, because the amount you need to kill your liver is not vastly higher than the therapeutic dose. It's one drug that should probably not be sold over the counter. Also, the fact that you expected to find painkillers in a German supermarket just means you're an American. It doesn't say anything important about barriers to access there.
kybernetyk 11y ago
>Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Yes. Also very (very) popular with teachers. When I remember back I had dozens of teachers telling me (us) that alternative medicine is often better than conventional. It's funny how many educated (university degree) and seemingly intelligent people I know who have that one idiotic quirk when it comes to medicine. Once that topic comes up they turn off their brain and get their tinfoil hats ready to tell me about the truth. It's like that fluoride conspiracy crap in the US - only that it's very popular here through all social classes.
bloaf 11y ago
I suspect that the reason is simpler. People want something to make them feel better, not something that has a chance of actually making them better. To many people, homeopathy and other alternative medicines offer a superior "feel better" package than traditional medicine. Modern health care can feel clinical, confusing, uncertain, and expensive. On the other hand, alternative medicine is cheap-ish and usually sold by "true believers" who will gladly spend time with you to assure you that everything is going to be OK. The anti-big-pharma spiel is just a red herring that prevents people from worrying about whether or not they've made the right decision in rejecting real medicine.

by nisa 11y ago

raverbashing 11y ago

> Berlin Prenzelberg I think you mean Prenzlauer Berg (it's a neighborhood) But yeah, similar to the US

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

I've only been to Germany once and I noticed that I couldn't get painkillers I use in the US over the counter. Some are apparently prescription onlyc (at least in typical doses/bottle in the US), but of course homeopathic junk was on display and ready for sale. I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy. There's a real egg > chicken problem you're ignoring. edit: I was in a supermarket where selling drugs is illegal not a pharmacy, where it is legal. Still my point stands, if you're in pain you'll go with whats easier. Putting up barriers to access is a problem. Tylenol should be at the grocery store, not homeopathic junk. edit2: HN wont let me reply to some comments: I never understood this knee-jerk defense of the nanny state. Most nations don't have a problem with this, but Germany does and that encourages homeopathic nonsense in that culture, to the point of government funding of it. Lets stop making excuses for failed policymakers.

kybernetyk 11y ago
Fun fact: The public health insurance in Germany pays for prescribed homeopathic "meds". So by paying my insurance contributions I indirectly support that esoteric nonsense. Also Tylenol (which is called Paracetamol here) is available over the counter. But only in pharmacies. Just like every other pain medication (ibuprofen, aspirin, etc) which you can buy in other countries - even in the EU - in super markets. Germany is a "little" over regulated here.
Udo 11y ago
> I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy I'm all for liberalizing drug laws in Germany, but just for completeness' sake: Tylenol is a brand name for Paracetamol which is readily available over the counter without prescription in Germany, as is Ibuprofen (Advil), ASA (Aspirin), as well as other anti-inflammatories and analgesics. I believe a case could be made that on the heavier end of pain relief Metamizole (Novalgin) should also be transitioned to a prescription-free status, but there has been a widespread panic about its side effects at some point. Also, a distinction should be made between herbal remedies which actually produce some effect, such as valerian or volatile oils, and pure woo such as homeopathic preparations. The reason why supernatural "medicine" is so successful in Germany lies in the fact that "alternative practicioner" is considered an actual profession with deep ideological and historic roots in the country. Susceptible is pretty much anyone who strives to use only "natural" resources for living because they lack the scientific understanding to know that all substances are chemicals (a bad word in Germany), and they often don't have any capacity to even recognize the "alternative" treatment options are in fact based on magical thinking.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
idlewords 11y ago
Tylenol is a bad example, because the amount you need to kill your liver is not vastly higher than the therapeutic dose. It's one drug that should probably not be sold over the counter. Also, the fact that you expected to find painkillers in a German supermarket just means you're an American. It doesn't say anything important about barriers to access there.

kybernetyk 11y ago

>Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Yes. Also very (very) popular with teachers. When I remember back I had dozens of teachers telling me (us) that alternative medicine is often better than conventional. It's funny how many educated (university degree) and seemingly intelligent people I know who have that one idiotic quirk when it comes to medicine. Once that topic comes up they turn off their brain and get their tinfoil hats ready to tell me about the truth. It's like that fluoride conspiracy crap in the US - only that it's very popular here through all social classes.

bloaf 11y ago

I suspect that the reason is simpler. People want something to make them feel better, not something that has a chance of actually making them better. To many people, homeopathy and other alternative medicines offer a superior "feel better" package than traditional medicine. Modern health care can feel clinical, confusing, uncertain, and expensive. On the other hand, alternative medicine is cheap-ish and usually sold by "true believers" who will gladly spend time with you to assure you that everything is going to be OK. The anti-big-pharma spiel is just a red herring that prevents people from worrying about whether or not they've made the right decision in rejecting real medicine.