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Economics play a large role. Countries with high medical costs tend to have more magical thinking that leads to overuse of "alternative" treatments with no scie

Economics play a large role. Countries with high medical costs tend to have more magical thinking that leads to overuse of "alternative" treatments with no scientific backing and that don't work. Why? It's hard to accept that one is taking an inferior solution due to economic constraint, so people fall into a sort of magical thinking/self-deception that leads them to reject modern medicine. In a society with expensive private health insurance and extremely high medical costs, it makes sense that people would resort to false cures. Of course, it's not always about money. See: Steve Jobs. It tends to take on a life of its own, after a certain point, because the mind-virus that might start due to inaccessibility of care lives on and spreads.

nisa 11y ago
Counter argument: Germany. Free and good public health care with additional private health care that is affordable. Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Reasons that are often cited and that I've encountered are mostly due to more personal contact with the practitioner and some fear about big pharma. It's getting so out of hand that a lot of children are not vaccinated - e.g. Berlin Prenzelberg - a place where high income, high educated folks are a majority is a major problem spot. This is something different - at least in Western Europe.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  > Berlin Prenzelberg I think you mean Prenzlauer Berg (it's a neighborhood) But yeah, similar to the US
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  I've only been to Germany once and I noticed that I couldn't get painkillers I use in the US over the counter. Some are apparently prescription onlyc (at least in typical doses/bottle in the US), but of course homeopathic junk was on display and ready for sale. I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy. There's a real egg > chicken problem you're ignoring. edit: I was in a supermarket where selling drugs is illegal not a pharmacy, where it is legal. Still my point stands, if you're in pain you'll go with whats easier. Putting up barriers to access is a problem. Tylenol should be at the grocery store, not homeopathic junk. edit2: HN wont let me reply to some comments: I never understood this knee-jerk defense of the nanny state. Most nations don't have a problem with this, but Germany does and that encourages homeopathic nonsense in that culture, to the point of government funding of it. Lets stop making excuses for failed policymakers.
  - kybernetyk 11y ago
    Fun fact: The public health insurance in Germany pays for prescribed homeopathic "meds". So by paying my insurance contributions I indirectly support that esoteric nonsense. Also Tylenol (which is called Paracetamol here) is available over the counter. But only in pharmacies. Just like every other pain medication (ibuprofen, aspirin, etc) which you can buy in other countries - even in the EU - in super markets. Germany is a "little" over regulated here.
  - Udo 11y ago
    > I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy I'm all for liberalizing drug laws in Germany, but just for completeness' sake: Tylenol is a brand name for Paracetamol which is readily available over the counter without prescription in Germany, as is Ibuprofen (Advil), ASA (Aspirin), as well as other anti-inflammatories and analgesics. I believe a case could be made that on the heavier end of pain relief Metamizole (Novalgin) should also be transitioned to a prescription-free status, but there has been a widespread panic about its side effects at some point. Also, a distinction should be made between herbal remedies which actually produce some effect, such as valerian or volatile oils, and pure woo such as homeopathic preparations. The reason why supernatural "medicine" is so successful in Germany lies in the fact that "alternative practicioner" is considered an actual profession with deep ideological and historic roots in the country. Susceptible is pretty much anyone who strives to use only "natural" resources for living because they lack the scientific understanding to know that all substances are chemicals (a bad word in Germany), and they often don't have any capacity to even recognize the "alternative" treatment options are in fact based on magical thinking.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - idlewords 11y ago
    Tylenol is a bad example, because the amount you need to kill your liver is not vastly higher than the therapeutic dose. It's one drug that should probably not be sold over the counter. Also, the fact that you expected to find painkillers in a German supermarket just means you're an American. It doesn't say anything important about barriers to access there.
- kybernetyk 11y ago
  >Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Yes. Also very (very) popular with teachers. When I remember back I had dozens of teachers telling me (us) that alternative medicine is often better than conventional. It's funny how many educated (university degree) and seemingly intelligent people I know who have that one idiotic quirk when it comes to medicine. Once that topic comes up they turn off their brain and get their tinfoil hats ready to tell me about the truth. It's like that fluoride conspiracy crap in the US - only that it's very popular here through all social classes.
- bloaf 11y ago
  I suspect that the reason is simpler. People want something to make them feel better, not something that has a chance of actually making them better. To many people, homeopathy and other alternative medicines offer a superior "feel better" package than traditional medicine. Modern health care can feel clinical, confusing, uncertain, and expensive. On the other hand, alternative medicine is cheap-ish and usually sold by "true believers" who will gladly spend time with you to assure you that everything is going to be OK. The anti-big-pharma spiel is just a red herring that prevents people from worrying about whether or not they've made the right decision in rejecting real medicine.
idlewords 11y ago
I don't think money is the governing factor with cancer. When you get a diagnosis, you face scary interventions (surgery, radiation, chemotherapy) and no reponsible doctor will promise you they will work. Believing that you can regain control over your body and your fate with something like diet is very psychologically appealing. On that note, if someone you know gets cancer, please sit on your hands instead of sending them any lifestyle advice, however well-intentioned, and cut off the hands of anyone you know who does that. It's amazing how many people think it's appropriate to forward links about their pet cancer cure.
mikeash 11y ago
I know a lot of people who believe this stuff, and it's never about the money, except in a vague "big pharma wants to make big profits by killing us" sort of way. They genuinely believe that mainstream medicine is outright harmful, and that the alternative stuff is better. This remains true even when the mainstream medicine is highly affordable, or even when the person in question has good health insurance. I saw an interesting case recently. Somebody stepped on a rusty nail (I didn't know that was something that actually happened!) and of course they weren't up to date on their tetanus shot, since vaccines are deadly poison. They asked friends what to do and got a variety of answers, most being some variation on "whatever you do don't get the shot, it will kill you," with various crazy alternative cures proposed. Ultimately they went to an urgent care clinic and got the vaccine. This was described after the fact in a sort of "I know I shouldn't but I didn't have the willpower," the way a normal person might describe how they broke down and ate a tub of ice cream even though they're trying to lose weight. It seems that people still understand on some deeper level that traditional medicine really does work, even if they believe it's "bad" otherwise. It ultimately looks to me like a variation on religion, where traditional medicine is seen as being sinful and alternatives are seen as righteous. You might come up with rationalizations about why, say, eating ham is bad for you, but ultimately a religious person with a pork prohibition will avoid it because it's just not right. And someone who believes eating pork is sinful can still easily end up wanting it, so it ends up being a weird internal struggle. On another note, at least among the people I know there is vast overlap between people who use alternative medical treatments and people who believe in stuff like chemtrails. I'm pretty sure there's no financial basis for that one!
- fredkbloggs 11y ago
  > "big pharma wants to make big profits by killing us" There's a big difference between distrusting drugmakers and thinking they want to kill you. The last thing they want is to kill you. It's bad PR, to say the least. But more importantly, killing you takes away one of the medical plan's customers. It's the only thing worse than curing you, because they'll never again get money for something prescribed to you. This position is totally unreasonable and no one who considers the situation for even 30 seconds can seriously believe it.
jessedhillon 11y ago
This doesn't pass a cursory glance at reality. Poor countries like India and China are building western-style hospitals as fast as they can, not ayurvedic clinics and temples. And very affluent areas of this country (USA) are the places where you find vaccine denial and demand for alternative medicine.

nisa 11y ago

Counter argument: Germany. Free and good public health care with additional private health care that is affordable. Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Reasons that are often cited and that I've encountered are mostly due to more personal contact with the practitioner and some fear about big pharma. It's getting so out of hand that a lot of children are not vaccinated - e.g. Berlin Prenzelberg - a place where high income, high educated folks are a majority is a major problem spot. This is something different - at least in Western Europe.

raverbashing 11y ago
> Berlin Prenzelberg I think you mean Prenzlauer Berg (it's a neighborhood) But yeah, similar to the US
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
I've only been to Germany once and I noticed that I couldn't get painkillers I use in the US over the counter. Some are apparently prescription onlyc (at least in typical doses/bottle in the US), but of course homeopathic junk was on display and ready for sale. I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy. There's a real egg > chicken problem you're ignoring. edit: I was in a supermarket where selling drugs is illegal not a pharmacy, where it is legal. Still my point stands, if you're in pain you'll go with whats easier. Putting up barriers to access is a problem. Tylenol should be at the grocery store, not homeopathic junk. edit2: HN wont let me reply to some comments: I never understood this knee-jerk defense of the nanny state. Most nations don't have a problem with this, but Germany does and that encourages homeopathic nonsense in that culture, to the point of government funding of it. Lets stop making excuses for failed policymakers.
- kybernetyk 11y ago
  Fun fact: The public health insurance in Germany pays for prescribed homeopathic "meds". So by paying my insurance contributions I indirectly support that esoteric nonsense. Also Tylenol (which is called Paracetamol here) is available over the counter. But only in pharmacies. Just like every other pain medication (ibuprofen, aspirin, etc) which you can buy in other countries - even in the EU - in super markets. Germany is a "little" over regulated here.
- Udo 11y ago
  > I suspect if they liberalized their laws then people would just buy Tylenol or whatever and not some herbal remedy I'm all for liberalizing drug laws in Germany, but just for completeness' sake: Tylenol is a brand name for Paracetamol which is readily available over the counter without prescription in Germany, as is Ibuprofen (Advil), ASA (Aspirin), as well as other anti-inflammatories and analgesics. I believe a case could be made that on the heavier end of pain relief Metamizole (Novalgin) should also be transitioned to a prescription-free status, but there has been a widespread panic about its side effects at some point. Also, a distinction should be made between herbal remedies which actually produce some effect, such as valerian or volatile oils, and pure woo such as homeopathic preparations. The reason why supernatural "medicine" is so successful in Germany lies in the fact that "alternative practicioner" is considered an actual profession with deep ideological and historic roots in the country. Susceptible is pretty much anyone who strives to use only "natural" resources for living because they lack the scientific understanding to know that all substances are chemicals (a bad word in Germany), and they often don't have any capacity to even recognize the "alternative" treatment options are in fact based on magical thinking.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- idlewords 11y ago
  Tylenol is a bad example, because the amount you need to kill your liver is not vastly higher than the therapeutic dose. It's one drug that should probably not be sold over the counter. Also, the fact that you expected to find painkillers in a German supermarket just means you're an American. It doesn't say anything important about barriers to access there.
kybernetyk 11y ago
>Esoteric thinking and homeopathic medicine are extremely common in educated and high income circles outside of STEM fields - basically the middle class loves this. Yes. Also very (very) popular with teachers. When I remember back I had dozens of teachers telling me (us) that alternative medicine is often better than conventional. It's funny how many educated (university degree) and seemingly intelligent people I know who have that one idiotic quirk when it comes to medicine. Once that topic comes up they turn off their brain and get their tinfoil hats ready to tell me about the truth. It's like that fluoride conspiracy crap in the US - only that it's very popular here through all social classes.
bloaf 11y ago
I suspect that the reason is simpler. People want something to make them feel better, not something that has a chance of actually making them better. To many people, homeopathy and other alternative medicines offer a superior "feel better" package than traditional medicine. Modern health care can feel clinical, confusing, uncertain, and expensive. On the other hand, alternative medicine is cheap-ish and usually sold by "true believers" who will gladly spend time with you to assure you that everything is going to be OK. The anti-big-pharma spiel is just a red herring that prevents people from worrying about whether or not they've made the right decision in rejecting real medicine.

idlewords 11y ago

I don't think money is the governing factor with cancer. When you get a diagnosis, you face scary interventions (surgery, radiation, chemotherapy) and no reponsible doctor will promise you they will work. Believing that you can regain control over your body and your fate with something like diet is very psychologically appealing. On that note, if someone you know gets cancer, please sit on your hands instead of sending them any lifestyle advice, however well-intentioned, and cut off the hands of anyone you know who does that. It's amazing how many people think it's appropriate to forward links about their pet cancer cure.

mikeash 11y ago

I know a lot of people who believe this stuff, and it's never about the money, except in a vague "big pharma wants to make big profits by killing us" sort of way. They genuinely believe that mainstream medicine is outright harmful, and that the alternative stuff is better. This remains true even when the mainstream medicine is highly affordable, or even when the person in question has good health insurance. I saw an interesting case recently. Somebody stepped on a rusty nail (I didn't know that was something that actually happened!) and of course they weren't up to date on their tetanus shot, since vaccines are deadly poison. They asked friends what to do and got a variety of answers, most being some variation on "whatever you do don't get the shot, it will kill you," with various crazy alternative cures proposed. Ultimately they went to an urgent care clinic and got the vaccine. This was described after the fact in a sort of "I know I shouldn't but I didn't have the willpower," the way a normal person might describe how they broke down and ate a tub of ice cream even though they're trying to lose weight. It seems that people still understand on some deeper level that traditional medicine really does work, even if they believe it's "bad" otherwise. It ultimately looks to me like a variation on religion, where traditional medicine is seen as being sinful and alternatives are seen as righteous. You might come up with rationalizations about why, say, eating ham is bad for you, but ultimately a religious person with a pork prohibition will avoid it because it's just not right. And someone who believes eating pork is sinful can still easily end up wanting it, so it ends up being a weird internal struggle. On another note, at least among the people I know there is vast overlap between people who use alternative medical treatments and people who believe in stuff like chemtrails. I'm pretty sure there's no financial basis for that one!

fredkbloggs 11y ago
> "big pharma wants to make big profits by killing us" There's a big difference between distrusting drugmakers and thinking they want to kill you. The last thing they want is to kill you. It's bad PR, to say the least. But more importantly, killing you takes away one of the medical plan's customers. It's the only thing worse than curing you, because they'll never again get money for something prescribed to you. This position is totally unreasonable and no one who considers the situation for even 30 seconds can seriously believe it.

jessedhillon 11y ago

This doesn't pass a cursory glance at reality. Poor countries like India and China are building western-style hospitals as fast as they can, not ayurvedic clinics and temples. And very affluent areas of this country (USA) are the places where you find vaccine denial and demand for alternative medicine.