5 ms·

Was about to ask for an alternate source too. Last time this was posted, people pointed out this website was not reliable at all. A nice analysis by a well-know

Was about to ask for an alternate source too. Last time this was posted, people pointed out this website was not reliable at all. A nice analysis by a well-known security researcher should exist to confirm that.

ewzimm 11y ago
Here's a nice analysis by a well-known security researcher in response to that article. He could not confirm the results. https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-spying-on-you/ https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-...
- restalis 11y ago
  This "nice analysis" smells like apologist on duty to me: The only dubious behavior I observed was sending every keystroke in the Windows Start Menu to the servers, but I understand that combined Computer /Web search is being sold as a feature, and this is necessary for that feature. Calling it "feature" is insulting. It's a key-logger!
  - ewzimm 11y ago
    You can call it a key logger, and I understand why you would object, but sending search terms typed into a search box to a search engine is pretty much what people expect. Ubuntu does it. GNOME does it. Android does it. iOS does it. OS X does it. Windows is very nearly the last one to do it. Privacy is important, and I don't think either I or David Tomaschik would ever argue otherwise, and there should definitely be an opt-out, but I think there are more serious problems with Windows that would be more worth objecting to than searching the Web from a search box.
    - tdkl 11y ago
      You didn't know that in Windows 10 until the news hit that disabling Cortana doesn't prevent that. Hell, I've never even seen Cortana since I'm in Dragon land (perhaps that's on the positive side for once) and I would've never thought the Start menu search isn't local only. Can I opt-out ? Nope. I can on Ubuntu, Android and iOS though.
      - ewzimm 11y ago
        It's really not that hard to opt out. The search is just a default program, and you can replace it with whatever you want, like Classic Shell. You could argue as others have that there should be a default search which is local only, but why is it so important that everyone uses Microsoft's default programs rather than the millions of third party programs available? There seems to be a double standard where people say that it's important that Microsoft not push its own software over alternatives but also that Microsoft's default programs should fit every need of every user. There's plenty that Microsoft does wrong, but providing a search that uses their search engine while allowing users to install whatever search they like is not so bad. You are already contacting their servers for updates and other things. Having to install an alternative search is really no worse than having to install a web browser. Now you might say that the menu is basic functionality but the browser is not, but what's really the difference?
        tdkl 11y ago
        The issue I see with it is transparency about it. If an user updates from Win7/8 who didn't have this explicit functionality, it doesn't know that it sends the queries online, nor is he immediately shown how to easily opt-out. I mean, where's a section in Control panel that's titled "Windows 7/Classic mode" ? FFS, I'd pay for that Service pack or edition. At least now we know why they're offering the update for free.
        ewzimm 11y ago
        It says "Search Windows and the web" right on the search box and displays web results. You don't have to pay for an alternative. When Windows 8 came out 3 years ago, lots of alternative start menus became available. If you haven't found out about them in that time, you probably don't care, but maybe they could be featured in the Windows Store or something like that under customization.
    - yellowapple 11y ago
      > sending search terms typed into a search box to a search engine is pretty much what people expect. Ubuntu does it. And Canonical has received a barrage of flak for it as a result. I outright stopped using Ubuntu as a result. Users expect the search box on their computer to search their own computer, not bombard them with ads. > GNOME does it. By default? Which distro? Last I checked, the GNOME search tool is limited to local objects. Maybe if you've explicitly integrated an online account, but I've yet to encounter that if that's the case. > Android does it. iOS does it. These systems aren't nearly as oriented around local file access, so the online-first approach for search (while I personally disagree with it) is not as jarring. Siri and Google Now are specifically marketed for online searches as well. > OS X does it. Again, by default? Because I've yet to actually see online results when searching for things in, say, Finder. Not that I wouldn't hold it above Apple to pull such shenanigans, of course; they love fucking over their users for the sake of a "more beautiful" (please) product. > Windows is very nearly the last one to do it. Hardly. None of the BSDs (that I know of) do it - even the desktop-oriented ones like PC-BSD. None of the KDE-based GNU/Linux distros (again, that I know of) do it - that category includes Kubuntu, openSUSE, and quite a few others. KDE itself certainly doesn't do it, nor do LXDE or Xfce, last I checked, and nor do the distros which use those particular DEs by default. I'm pretty sure none of the GNOME-based distros do it; in particular, I'd be very surprised if Debian stooped anywhere close to such a level of depravity.
      - ewzimm 11y ago
        GNOME searches whatever you want it to, but they heavily advertise integration with online sources as a feature. OS X Spotlight does online by default. Finder and Windows Explorer search local files. I said very nearly since, although they're great, BSD, KDE, etc. have very few users. I'm not arguing that having control over your computer is important. I think people should be using exclusively free software, but it's really hard to sell them on that. Just about the only thing going for it is honesty and consistency. I'm worried that if people start exaggerating issues and get exposed for it, the free software side will lose credibility.
        yellowapple 11y ago

ewzimm 11y ago

Here's a nice analysis by a well-known security researcher in response to that article. He could not confirm the results. https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-spying-on-you/ https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-...

restalis 11y ago
This "nice analysis" smells like apologist on duty to me: The only dubious behavior I observed was sending every keystroke in the Windows Start Menu to the servers, but I understand that combined Computer /Web search is being sold as a feature, and this is necessary for that feature. Calling it "feature" is insulting. It's a key-logger!
- ewzimm 11y ago
  You can call it a key logger, and I understand why you would object, but sending search terms typed into a search box to a search engine is pretty much what people expect. Ubuntu does it. GNOME does it. Android does it. iOS does it. OS X does it. Windows is very nearly the last one to do it. Privacy is important, and I don't think either I or David Tomaschik would ever argue otherwise, and there should definitely be an opt-out, but I think there are more serious problems with Windows that would be more worth objecting to than searching the Web from a search box.
  - tdkl 11y ago
    You didn't know that in Windows 10 until the news hit that disabling Cortana doesn't prevent that. Hell, I've never even seen Cortana since I'm in Dragon land (perhaps that's on the positive side for once) and I would've never thought the Start menu search isn't local only. Can I opt-out ? Nope. I can on Ubuntu, Android and iOS though.
    - ewzimm 11y ago
      It's really not that hard to opt out. The search is just a default program, and you can replace it with whatever you want, like Classic Shell. You could argue as others have that there should be a default search which is local only, but why is it so important that everyone uses Microsoft's default programs rather than the millions of third party programs available? There seems to be a double standard where people say that it's important that Microsoft not push its own software over alternatives but also that Microsoft's default programs should fit every need of every user. There's plenty that Microsoft does wrong, but providing a search that uses their search engine while allowing users to install whatever search they like is not so bad. You are already contacting their servers for updates and other things. Having to install an alternative search is really no worse than having to install a web browser. Now you might say that the menu is basic functionality but the browser is not, but what's really the difference?
      - tdkl 11y ago
        The issue I see with it is transparency about it. If an user updates from Win7/8 who didn't have this explicit functionality, it doesn't know that it sends the queries online, nor is he immediately shown how to easily opt-out. I mean, where's a section in Control panel that's titled "Windows 7/Classic mode" ? FFS, I'd pay for that Service pack or edition. At least now we know why they're offering the update for free.
        ewzimm 11y ago
        It says "Search Windows and the web" right on the search box and displays web results. You don't have to pay for an alternative. When Windows 8 came out 3 years ago, lots of alternative start menus became available. If you haven't found out about them in that time, you probably don't care, but maybe they could be featured in the Windows Store or something like that under customization.
  - yellowapple 11y ago
    > sending search terms typed into a search box to a search engine is pretty much what people expect. Ubuntu does it. And Canonical has received a barrage of flak for it as a result. I outright stopped using Ubuntu as a result. Users expect the search box on their computer to search their own computer, not bombard them with ads. > GNOME does it. By default? Which distro? Last I checked, the GNOME search tool is limited to local objects. Maybe if you've explicitly integrated an online account, but I've yet to encounter that if that's the case. > Android does it. iOS does it. These systems aren't nearly as oriented around local file access, so the online-first approach for search (while I personally disagree with it) is not as jarring. Siri and Google Now are specifically marketed for online searches as well. > OS X does it. Again, by default? Because I've yet to actually see online results when searching for things in, say, Finder. Not that I wouldn't hold it above Apple to pull such shenanigans, of course; they love fucking over their users for the sake of a "more beautiful" (please) product. > Windows is very nearly the last one to do it. Hardly. None of the BSDs (that I know of) do it - even the desktop-oriented ones like PC-BSD. None of the KDE-based GNU/Linux distros (again, that I know of) do it - that category includes Kubuntu, openSUSE, and quite a few others. KDE itself certainly doesn't do it, nor do LXDE or Xfce, last I checked, and nor do the distros which use those particular DEs by default. I'm pretty sure none of the GNOME-based distros do it; in particular, I'd be very surprised if Debian stooped anywhere close to such a level of depravity.
    - ewzimm 11y ago
      GNOME searches whatever you want it to, but they heavily advertise integration with online sources as a feature. OS X Spotlight does online by default. Finder and Windows Explorer search local files. I said very nearly since, although they're great, BSD, KDE, etc. have very few users. I'm not arguing that having control over your computer is important. I think people should be using exclusively free software, but it's really hard to sell them on that. Just about the only thing going for it is honesty and consistency. I'm worried that if people start exaggerating issues and get exposed for it, the free software side will lose credibility.
      - yellowapple 11y ago