5 ms·

Is any of this verified? During a previous posting of this it was largely dismissed as propaganda [1]. If someone has reproduced these findings that would be ve

by kardos 11y ago

Is any of this verified? During a previous posting of this it was largely dismissed as propaganda [1]. If someone has reproduced these findings that would be very interesting. What would be even more interesting would be for someone to intercept the spying data that is being sent back so we know for sure what's being sent. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10053420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10053420

Artemis2 11y ago
Was about to ask for an alternate source too. Last time this was posted, people pointed out this website was not reliable at all. A nice analysis by a well-known security researcher should exist to confirm that.
- ewzimm 11y ago
  Here's a nice analysis by a well-known security researcher in response to that article. He could not confirm the results. https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-spying-on-you/ https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-...
  - restalis 11y ago
    This "nice analysis" smells like apologist on duty to me: The only dubious behavior I observed was sending every keystroke in the Windows Start Menu to the servers, but I understand that combined Computer /Web search is being sold as a feature, and this is necessary for that feature. Calling it "feature" is insulting. It's a key-logger!
    - ewzimm 11y ago
      You can call it a key logger, and I understand why you would object, but sending search terms typed into a search box to a search engine is pretty much what people expect. Ubuntu does it. GNOME does it. Android does it. iOS does it. OS X does it. Windows is very nearly the last one to do it. Privacy is important, and I don't think either I or David Tomaschik would ever argue otherwise, and there should definitely be an opt-out, but I think there are more serious problems with Windows that would be more worth objecting to than searching the Web from a search box.
      - tdkl 11y ago
        You didn't know that in Windows 10 until the news hit that disabling Cortana doesn't prevent that. Hell, I've never even seen Cortana since I'm in Dragon land (perhaps that's on the positive side for once) and I would've never thought the Start menu search isn't local only. Can I opt-out ? Nope. I can on Ubuntu, Android and iOS though.
        ewzimm 11y ago
        It's really not that hard to opt out. The search is just a default program, and you can replace it with whatever you want, like Classic Shell. You could argue as others have that there should be a default search which is local only, but why is it so important that everyone uses Microsoft's default programs rather than the millions of third party programs available? There seems to be a double standard where people say that it's important that Microsoft not push its own software over alternatives but also that Microsoft's default programs should fit every need of every user. There's plenty that Microsoft does wrong, but providing a search that uses their search engine while allowing users to install whatever search they like is not so bad. You are already contacting their servers for updates and other things. Having to install an alternative search is really no worse than having to install a web browser. Now you might say that the menu is basic functionality but the browser is not, but what's really the difference?
        tdkl 11y ago
        The issue I see with it is transparency about it. If an user updates from Win7/8 who didn't have this explicit functionality, it doesn't know that it sends the queries online, nor is he immediately shown how to easily opt-out. I mean, where's a section in Control panel that's titled "Windows 7/Classic mode" ? FFS, I'd pay for that Service pack or edition. At least now we know why they're offering the update for free.
        ewzimm 11y ago
        It says "Search Windows and the web" right on the search box and displays web results. You don't have to pay for an alternative. When Windows 8 came out 3 years ago, lots of alternative start menus became available. If you haven't found out about them in that time, you probably don't care, but maybe they could be featured in the Windows Store or something like that under customization.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- edanm 11y ago
  Errrrr, are you saying that if someone is making up random accusations which are not true, we should treat them the same as facts?
- criley2 11y ago
  >Does this even need to be verified ? Of course not. We should make blind, fear-based assumptions about businesses and reject the "rudder of rationality", so that we can be blown about by the winds of whatever viral fearmongering hits the top of our feeds for the day!!
- kardos 11y ago
  Yes, it does. A fictitious list presented as fact does not contribute to the discussion. We know that Win 10 transmits lots of data to various hosts, and their recent privacy policy outlines a plausible, yet vague description of what is being sent. It is quite possibly deliberately incomplete/vague, and legitimate account of what is being sent would contribute greatly. As for being safe and maintaining privacy, it is well established that the solution is to move to an open system.
hirsin 11y ago
Well, seeing that 80 MB every 15 minutes is over 35 Tb/s (at only 50 million Win 10 users [1]), and 12 Tb/s was the reigning speed record... [1] http://www.winbeta.org/news/there-are-now-over-50-million-people-using-windows-10-worldwide http://www.winbeta.org/news/there-are-now-over-50-million-pe...
- agscala 11y ago
  No, that's actually 0.8 Mb/s
  - hirsin 11y ago
    Yes, per person. At 50 million users, you need a 35 Tbps pipe to take in all that data.
    - yellowapple 11y ago
      That can conceivably be split across multiple datacenters in multiple countries - something which Microsoft almost certainly has access to.
      - hirsin 11y ago
        Even breaking it across multiple datacenters you're still hardpressed to do those speeds over a short period (weeks), let alone constantly over time [1]. My point was the physics in the parent don't work. 1. http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/07/windows-10-launch-huge-traffic.html http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/07/windows-10-launch-hug...

by kardos 11y ago

Artemis2 11y ago

Was about to ask for an alternate source too. Last time this was posted, people pointed out this website was not reliable at all. A nice analysis by a well-known security researcher should exist to confirm that.

ewzimm 11y ago
Here's a nice analysis by a well-known security researcher in response to that article. He could not confirm the results. https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-spying-on-you/ https://systemoverlord.com/blog/2015/08/16/so-is-windows-10-...
- restalis 11y ago
  This "nice analysis" smells like apologist on duty to me: The only dubious behavior I observed was sending every keystroke in the Windows Start Menu to the servers, but I understand that combined Computer /Web search is being sold as a feature, and this is necessary for that feature. Calling it "feature" is insulting. It's a key-logger!
  - ewzimm 11y ago
    You can call it a key logger, and I understand why you would object, but sending search terms typed into a search box to a search engine is pretty much what people expect. Ubuntu does it. GNOME does it. Android does it. iOS does it. OS X does it. Windows is very nearly the last one to do it. Privacy is important, and I don't think either I or David Tomaschik would ever argue otherwise, and there should definitely be an opt-out, but I think there are more serious problems with Windows that would be more worth objecting to than searching the Web from a search box.
    - tdkl 11y ago
      You didn't know that in Windows 10 until the news hit that disabling Cortana doesn't prevent that. Hell, I've never even seen Cortana since I'm in Dragon land (perhaps that's on the positive side for once) and I would've never thought the Start menu search isn't local only. Can I opt-out ? Nope. I can on Ubuntu, Android and iOS though.
      - ewzimm 11y ago
        It's really not that hard to opt out. The search is just a default program, and you can replace it with whatever you want, like Classic Shell. You could argue as others have that there should be a default search which is local only, but why is it so important that everyone uses Microsoft's default programs rather than the millions of third party programs available? There seems to be a double standard where people say that it's important that Microsoft not push its own software over alternatives but also that Microsoft's default programs should fit every need of every user. There's plenty that Microsoft does wrong, but providing a search that uses their search engine while allowing users to install whatever search they like is not so bad. You are already contacting their servers for updates and other things. Having to install an alternative search is really no worse than having to install a web browser. Now you might say that the menu is basic functionality but the browser is not, but what's really the difference?
        tdkl 11y ago
        The issue I see with it is transparency about it. If an user updates from Win7/8 who didn't have this explicit functionality, it doesn't know that it sends the queries online, nor is he immediately shown how to easily opt-out. I mean, where's a section in Control panel that's titled "Windows 7/Classic mode" ? FFS, I'd pay for that Service pack or edition. At least now we know why they're offering the update for free.
        ewzimm 11y ago
        It says "Search Windows and the web" right on the search box and displays web results. You don't have to pay for an alternative. When Windows 8 came out 3 years ago, lots of alternative start menus became available. If you haven't found out about them in that time, you probably don't care, but maybe they could be featured in the Windows Store or something like that under customization.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

edanm 11y ago
Errrrr, are you saying that if someone is making up random accusations which are not true, we should treat them the same as facts?
criley2 11y ago
>Does this even need to be verified ? Of course not. We should make blind, fear-based assumptions about businesses and reject the "rudder of rationality", so that we can be blown about by the winds of whatever viral fearmongering hits the top of our feeds for the day!!
kardos 11y ago
Yes, it does. A fictitious list presented as fact does not contribute to the discussion. We know that Win 10 transmits lots of data to various hosts, and their recent privacy policy outlines a plausible, yet vague description of what is being sent. It is quite possibly deliberately incomplete/vague, and legitimate account of what is being sent would contribute greatly. As for being safe and maintaining privacy, it is well established that the solution is to move to an open system.

hirsin 11y ago

Well, seeing that 80 MB every 15 minutes is over 35 Tb/s (at only 50 million Win 10 users [1]), and 12 Tb/s was the reigning speed record... [1] http://www.winbeta.org/news/there-are-now-over-50-million-people-using-windows-10-worldwide http://www.winbeta.org/news/there-are-now-over-50-million-pe...

agscala 11y ago
No, that's actually 0.8 Mb/s
- hirsin 11y ago
  Yes, per person. At 50 million users, you need a 35 Tbps pipe to take in all that data.
  - yellowapple 11y ago
    That can conceivably be split across multiple datacenters in multiple countries - something which Microsoft almost certainly has access to.
    - hirsin 11y ago
      Even breaking it across multiple datacenters you're still hardpressed to do those speeds over a short period (weeks), let alone constantly over time [1]. My point was the physics in the parent don't work. 1. http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/07/windows-10-launch-huge-traffic.html http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/07/windows-10-launch-hug...