4 ms·

"99% of the time they're not a measure of ability, they're a measure of obedience, and your ability to persuade teachers." This is false. Grades correlate reas

by natrius 17y ago

"99% of the time they're not a measure of ability, they're a measure of obedience, and your ability to persuade teachers." This is false. Grades correlate reasonably well with ability. Plenty of people get good grades without corresponding ability, but 99% is a laughable exaggeration.

tokenadult 17y ago
Grades correlate reasonably well with ability. What would be evidence for that statement, in view of the parent comment to yours that disagrees with that conclusion? Where would one look for research on this issue? One old book that I read back in high school days http://www.amazon.com/Wad-Ja-Get-Grading-Game-American-Education/dp/0805501134 http://www.amazon.com/Wad-Ja-Get-Grading-Game-American-Educa... suggested that grades correlate less well with ability (or any other meaningful characteristic of students) than supposed by the teachers who give grades to students. I'd love to hear about current research on this issue.
jjs 17y ago
"Grades correlate reasonably well with ability." ... as measured by grades.
- natrius 17y ago
  If nothing you did in school had any relation whatsoever to the real world, you got screwed.
  - jjs 17y ago
    "If nothing you did in school had any relation whatsoever to the real world, you got screwed." And, since no one ever gets screwed, we can therefore conclude that your original argument is correct! (See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences)
    - natrius 17y ago
      Except that's not what I said. Too many people around here try to pretend that grades mean absolutely nothing. I doubt that nothing you did in school had any relation to the real world, and I pointed that out to you in the hope that you'd realize that the burden of proof in this argument rests on those who would try to argue that grades mean nothing. In the absence of actual data, which no one has provided, it doesn't make sense to give any merit to the anecdotal arguments of the minority rather than the equally anecdotal arguments of the majority.
      - jjs 17y ago
        On the contrary, I stated that grades measured the ability to get grades, which is almost tautological. Demonstrating anything beyond that would require proof, hence the burden of proof is squarely yours. :)
- ghshephard 17y ago
  Seriously? Do you really believe that? Given a room of people do you honestly believe that in talking about, let's say Math, or Physics, or Chemistry that you couldn't immediately identify which of them had grades in the top 25th percentile versus the lower 25th percentile? I bet I could _even without having studied those domains_ in 20+ years. Now, I'll agree that grades don't correlate _perfectly_ with ability for _everyone_ - we all know the bright slacker who doesn't turn in his homework, and maybe skips a test or two. But, in general, a student who score 95% in physics knows their material very well. A student who scores 15% in physics is probably clueless.
  - falsestprophet 17y ago
    Lets test your hypothesis. I put your written communication skills in the bottom 50%. Did you earn good marks in English?
    - ghshephard 17y ago
      Horrible marks in English. And yes, I do apologize for subjecting everyone to my subpar written communication skills.
      - falsestprophet 17y ago
        Touche: hypothesis supported
        falsestprophet 17y ago
        Also sorry for being snooty. It is easy to get riled up whenever someone tells you how smart you are. This is especially true of people who make a living from ostensibly being clever. Some of us, clearly including myself, are insecure.
  - jjs 17y ago
    Math, Physics, and Chemistry are easy to objectively grade, so I'd accept that they tend to have higher grade quality (a notional metric of the correlation of grades to ability) than e.g. literature, drama, sociology, pottery, etc, where the grade quality correlates to the ability of the grader. Physics classes don't prove a blanket statement regarding grade quality over all subjects, any more than Yao Ming proves that Chinese people tend to be seven feet tall, or the King of Sweden proves that Swedes tend to be kings.
Retric 17y ago
With a range of classes from remedial, normal, advanced, and honors and a selection of electives I think most people's are intelligent enough to get a 4.0 in HS but few people can get there without significant drive. Compare that with a medical program where you really do need to be fairly intelligent, knowledgeable about your subject and willing to work your ass off to get a 4.0.

by natrius 17y ago

tokenadult 17y ago

Grades correlate reasonably well with ability. What would be evidence for that statement, in view of the parent comment to yours that disagrees with that conclusion? Where would one look for research on this issue? One old book that I read back in high school days http://www.amazon.com/Wad-Ja-Get-Grading-Game-American-Education/dp/0805501134 http://www.amazon.com/Wad-Ja-Get-Grading-Game-American-Educa... suggested that grades correlate less well with ability (or any other meaningful characteristic of students) than supposed by the teachers who give grades to students. I'd love to hear about current research on this issue.

jjs 17y ago

"Grades correlate reasonably well with ability." ... as measured by grades.

natrius 17y ago
If nothing you did in school had any relation whatsoever to the real world, you got screwed.
- jjs 17y ago
  "If nothing you did in school had any relation whatsoever to the real world, you got screwed." And, since no one ever gets screwed, we can therefore conclude that your original argument is correct! (See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences)
  - natrius 17y ago
    Except that's not what I said. Too many people around here try to pretend that grades mean absolutely nothing. I doubt that nothing you did in school had any relation to the real world, and I pointed that out to you in the hope that you'd realize that the burden of proof in this argument rests on those who would try to argue that grades mean nothing. In the absence of actual data, which no one has provided, it doesn't make sense to give any merit to the anecdotal arguments of the minority rather than the equally anecdotal arguments of the majority.
    - jjs 17y ago
      On the contrary, I stated that grades measured the ability to get grades, which is almost tautological. Demonstrating anything beyond that would require proof, hence the burden of proof is squarely yours. :)
ghshephard 17y ago
Seriously? Do you really believe that? Given a room of people do you honestly believe that in talking about, let's say Math, or Physics, or Chemistry that you couldn't immediately identify which of them had grades in the top 25th percentile versus the lower 25th percentile? I bet I could _even without having studied those domains_ in 20+ years. Now, I'll agree that grades don't correlate _perfectly_ with ability for _everyone_ - we all know the bright slacker who doesn't turn in his homework, and maybe skips a test or two. But, in general, a student who score 95% in physics knows their material very well. A student who scores 15% in physics is probably clueless.
- falsestprophet 17y ago
  Lets test your hypothesis. I put your written communication skills in the bottom 50%. Did you earn good marks in English?
  - ghshephard 17y ago
    Horrible marks in English. And yes, I do apologize for subjecting everyone to my subpar written communication skills.
    - falsestprophet 17y ago
      Touche: hypothesis supported
      - falsestprophet 17y ago
        Also sorry for being snooty. It is easy to get riled up whenever someone tells you how smart you are. This is especially true of people who make a living from ostensibly being clever. Some of us, clearly including myself, are insecure.
- jjs 17y ago
  Math, Physics, and Chemistry are easy to objectively grade, so I'd accept that they tend to have higher grade quality (a notional metric of the correlation of grades to ability) than e.g. literature, drama, sociology, pottery, etc, where the grade quality correlates to the ability of the grader. Physics classes don't prove a blanket statement regarding grade quality over all subjects, any more than Yao Ming proves that Chinese people tend to be seven feet tall, or the King of Sweden proves that Swedes tend to be kings.

Retric 17y ago

With a range of classes from remedial, normal, advanced, and honors and a selection of electives I think most people's are intelligent enough to get a 4.0 in HS but few people can get there without significant drive. Compare that with a medical program where you really do need to be fairly intelligent, knowledgeable about your subject and willing to work your ass off to get a 4.0.