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> Capitalism at it's finest. The race to the bottom will eventually What are you going on about? If capitalism is a race to the bottom, we would have reached i

by maratd 11y ago

> Capitalism at it's finest. The race to the bottom will eventually What are you going on about? If capitalism is a race to the bottom, we would have reached it a long time ago. Capitalism isn't new. It's been around for a while.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
I'm amazed anyone can try to defend a system that has manic-depressive episodes built in as a feature.
- merpnderp 11y ago
  Because it's the system that's pulled several billion people out of abject poverty in the last 30 years? I believe the system that was tried before that was called socialism, and didn't work as well as capitalism.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    In Europe socialism created limited working hours, affordable health care, free public education all the way to university level - and beyond - and was also responsible for massive investment in infrastructure and R&D. Modern social democratic states wouldn't exist without it. You might want to understand what the word means before running down a political system you seem to know nothing about. As for abject poverty - there's more of that around than ever. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there. And after this week, there's more on the way, too.
    - merpnderp 11y ago
      I'd hardly call Europe socialist. Socialism is the social ownership (state ownership) of the means of production. A welfare state is a state with large programs to ensure the welfare of the people, which better describes much of Europe. As for extreme poverty, China has seen a 90% reduction in extreme poverty since 1981, and India has seen a 60% reduction since 1981, and Sub-Saharan Africa has seen a 12%. The Indian and Chinese reductions coincided with a relaxation on state owned industry and introduction of free market economic policies. Hate the corruption, hate the corporatism, but according to the world bank (and nearly every other NGO), capitalism has reduced human misery on this planet like no other force.
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        Socialism is the social ownership (state ownership) of the means of production. Social ownership != state ownership. That's only one manifestation of it. Socialism has historically been about common ownership, which implies decentralized, democratically structured worker cooperatives. One existing example today is Mondragon.
      - rorykoehler 11y ago
        >(state ownership) of the means of production That would be Communism, a very extreme form of Socialism. Many countries in Europe are very Socialist.
        maratd 11y ago
        Communism is state ownership of all property. The parent gave the proper definition of socialism. It is the state ownership of the means of production. Europe is not socialist. There were various attempts, but the means of production is still overwhelmingly private.
        rorykoehler 11y ago
        Reading Lenin's letters in the Lenin museum in Tampere was very eye opening and educational. Communism was never meant to be the state ownership of all property. It was meant to be the centralized state ownership of the means of production (mainly mining and large infrastructure) with cottage industries (local farmers and makers etc) existing and operating in a free market. Shortly before his death Lenin warned the politburo that Stalin was no good and should be purged from the party. When Stalin came to power he corrupted the original aim of Communism and installed new rules for state ownership to encompass the means of all production and also the proceeds of all production and we all now what happened next. The commons is a very old concept in Europe. In the UK for example common ownership of agricultural land was the norm until the tragedy of the commons in the early/mid 1800's. Today Europe is largely a social democracy which aims to walk the line between socialism and capitalism. Again social ownership of the means of production does not necessarily mean state ownership. As vezzy-fnord pointed out Mondragon is a cooperative who came about from the anti-Franco socialist movement in Spain in the mid 1900's. This is most definitely a socialist philosophy operating within a capitalist framework. Socialism has had a major impact on European politics. The Nordic countries have an immensely strong welfare states due to this, the labour party in the UK (the blip of Tony Blair is an anomaly and they are swinging back to the left now), Sinn Fein (IRA political wing) in Ireland, François Hollande's Socialist party etc etc. Sure Europe operates within a capitalist framework but there is not such a fervent religious belief in unbridled capitalism as one would find in the States. All one needs to do is look at all the anti-trust lawsuits we have in the EU, against the likes of Google and Microsoft, to see how Socialist philosophy manifests itself in contemporary times.
rorykoehler 11y ago
Produced goods are always getting cheaper. All trends point towards moving towards a zero marginal cost society. Economic pressures and the need to compete are forever pushing prices down. We are also getting more efficient at producing goods in parallel to this trend (another side effect of capitalism). The only way this will stop is through organized price fixing cartels.

by maratd 11y ago

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

I'm amazed anyone can try to defend a system that has manic-depressive episodes built in as a feature.

merpnderp 11y ago
Because it's the system that's pulled several billion people out of abject poverty in the last 30 years? I believe the system that was tried before that was called socialism, and didn't work as well as capitalism.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  In Europe socialism created limited working hours, affordable health care, free public education all the way to university level - and beyond - and was also responsible for massive investment in infrastructure and R&D. Modern social democratic states wouldn't exist without it. You might want to understand what the word means before running down a political system you seem to know nothing about. As for abject poverty - there's more of that around than ever. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there. And after this week, there's more on the way, too.
  - merpnderp 11y ago
    I'd hardly call Europe socialist. Socialism is the social ownership (state ownership) of the means of production. A welfare state is a state with large programs to ensure the welfare of the people, which better describes much of Europe. As for extreme poverty, China has seen a 90% reduction in extreme poverty since 1981, and India has seen a 60% reduction since 1981, and Sub-Saharan Africa has seen a 12%. The Indian and Chinese reductions coincided with a relaxation on state owned industry and introduction of free market economic policies. Hate the corruption, hate the corporatism, but according to the world bank (and nearly every other NGO), capitalism has reduced human misery on this planet like no other force.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Socialism is the social ownership (state ownership) of the means of production. Social ownership != state ownership. That's only one manifestation of it. Socialism has historically been about common ownership, which implies decentralized, democratically structured worker cooperatives. One existing example today is Mondragon.
    - rorykoehler 11y ago
      >(state ownership) of the means of production That would be Communism, a very extreme form of Socialism. Many countries in Europe are very Socialist.
      - maratd 11y ago
        Communism is state ownership of all property. The parent gave the proper definition of socialism. It is the state ownership of the means of production. Europe is not socialist. There were various attempts, but the means of production is still overwhelmingly private.
        rorykoehler 11y ago
        Reading Lenin's letters in the Lenin museum in Tampere was very eye opening and educational. Communism was never meant to be the state ownership of all property. It was meant to be the centralized state ownership of the means of production (mainly mining and large infrastructure) with cottage industries (local farmers and makers etc) existing and operating in a free market. Shortly before his death Lenin warned the politburo that Stalin was no good and should be purged from the party. When Stalin came to power he corrupted the original aim of Communism and installed new rules for state ownership to encompass the means of all production and also the proceeds of all production and we all now what happened next. The commons is a very old concept in Europe. In the UK for example common ownership of agricultural land was the norm until the tragedy of the commons in the early/mid 1800's. Today Europe is largely a social democracy which aims to walk the line between socialism and capitalism. Again social ownership of the means of production does not necessarily mean state ownership. As vezzy-fnord pointed out Mondragon is a cooperative who came about from the anti-Franco socialist movement in Spain in the mid 1900's. This is most definitely a socialist philosophy operating within a capitalist framework. Socialism has had a major impact on European politics. The Nordic countries have an immensely strong welfare states due to this, the labour party in the UK (the blip of Tony Blair is an anomaly and they are swinging back to the left now), Sinn Fein (IRA political wing) in Ireland, François Hollande's Socialist party etc etc. Sure Europe operates within a capitalist framework but there is not such a fervent religious belief in unbridled capitalism as one would find in the States. All one needs to do is look at all the anti-trust lawsuits we have in the EU, against the likes of Google and Microsoft, to see how Socialist philosophy manifests itself in contemporary times.

rorykoehler 11y ago

Produced goods are always getting cheaper. All trends point towards moving towards a zero marginal cost society. Economic pressures and the need to compete are forever pushing prices down. We are also getting more efficient at producing goods in parallel to this trend (another side effect of capitalism). The only way this will stop is through organized price fixing cartels.