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PS... I don't deny that a subset of the US economy/workforce got hit really hard in 2008 and never recovered. But when you look at the US economy as a whole thi

PS... I don't deny that a subset of the US economy/workforce got hit really hard in 2008 and never recovered. But when you look at the US economy as a whole things are doing quite well.

sillygeese 11y ago
> when you look at the US economy as a whole things are doing quite well To be more accurate, when you look at the propaganda spewed by the mainstream media, everything seems to be fine, because they keep spinning everything in a positive light. In the US, for starters, there's a huge bubble in stocks, and an echo bubble in housing. There's a massive property bubble in Canada and Australia, and so on. With interest rates already at roughly zero, they don't have room for lowering them to "stimulate" the economy (to avoid the inevitable crash that's coming). Of course, getting people to spend money they don't have and businesses to start projects they shouldn't, isn't exactly good for the economy but hey.. whatever keeps the show going for a while longer. (Downvoters? It's at the very least possible that you just don't know that I'm right.. :) Do your homework, but not from mainstream media sources)
- MCRed 11y ago
  We have a democrat who is president, and who took over after a crisis during the term of a republican. (never mind that he was part of the cause of the crisis with his 1990s era "not lending to people who can't repay is racist" lawsuit against banks)... so the liberals of HN are highly motivated to believe that democrats are "responsible" and that they have "fixed the economy" after republicans "wrecked it". So when you point out that the king has no clothes, naturally you get downvoted. The current mess of the US economy is due to the choices of many politicians, in congress and the presidency, from both parties. Neither party should get a passing grade in this regard. This is why we need the government out of the economy, and let it work. Hell if it weren't for government the bad banks would have failed in 2008-- and we would have had a real recovery afterwards.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - sillygeese 11y ago
    Yeah, speaking the truth tends to get you downvoted. People are silly and emotional. But it's nice to see another independent thinker here. I've noticed you before. Don't pay much attention to the political circus though, the false choice between "Demopublicans". That's all smoke and mirrors to make you think you have a say in how you're "governed" (i.e. coerced). > The current mess of the US economy is due to the choices of many politicians, in congress and the presidency, from both parties. It's much deeper than that. The dollar was detached from the gold standard in 1971, and that was the beginning of "the real end". Before that, the establishment of the Federal Reserve in 1913 set the scene for all the economic trouble to come, and so on. Check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk > This is why we need the government out of the economy, and let it work. You're on the right track, but take it further. We need the government out of existence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE .. it is based on extortion, after all. What maintains governments is the belief in political authority: http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/Contents.pdf http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/Contents.pdf > Hell if it weren't for government the bad banks would have failed in 2008-- and we would have had a real recovery afterwards. That's certainly true.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    > if it weren't for government the bad banks would have failed in 2008-- and we would have had a real recovery afterwards. We would - but at the price of a much worse crash. (Which doesn't mean that the result, today, would have been any better - the further down the bottom was, the better the recovery has to be to reach the same point.)
  - pnut 11y ago
    America is the greatest economic engine the world has ever known. It's not because we're situated on a mountain of rubies, or that we are intellectually superior to other countries. It's because of our system of government. This talk about the government being the problem, causing harm to the economy, really irritates me - the American economy owes its very existence to the American government and the private property protections it offers in the forms of regulations, legal system, social welfare programs, public education, military, etc etc etc. If you can't stomach the sausage making in the US without losing respect for all the greatness it permits, just stop paying attention and vote for whoever says what feels right, that's the American way. Your italicized real recovery sounds like another adrenaline boost in the arm, rather than the robust, sustainable recovery that is actually occurring.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  I think you're getting downvoted because you're bringing a bunch of paranoid conspiracy-theory drivel, but no data. I mean, if you at least supplied some links to the data that you think support your view, that would make for a much more worthwhile post.
code4tee 11y ago
"In the US, for starters, there's a huge bubble in stocks" The median PE ratio of S&P 500 stocks at the moment is $14. That's certainly not "bubble" territory. The current market correction is surprising nobody, but I don't think many people consider this a bubble (at least for the US markets). Now there are certainly subsectors within the US that could be in bubble territory and could get hit really hard... unrealistically valued tech stocks being one of them. But again, across the whole US economy things are alright.
- jazzyk 11y ago
  I assume you meant 14, not $14. Anyway, it is false. S&P 500 P/E ratio was (until last week) around 19. The more accurate Shiller P/E was closer to 27. Way above the historical median. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/the-s-p-500-p-e-is-19-unless-it-s-actually-27-as-shiller-says http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/the-s-p-50...
  - forgetsusername 11y ago
    The Shiller CAPE is 24.41, the historical average is 16.62: http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/table http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/table

PS... I don't deny that a subset of the US economy/workforce got hit really hard in 2008 and never recovered. But when you look at the US economy as a whole things are doing quite well.

sillygeese 11y ago

> when you look at the US economy as a whole things are doing quite well To be more accurate, when you look at the propaganda spewed by the mainstream media, everything seems to be fine, because they keep spinning everything in a positive light. In the US, for starters, there's a huge bubble in stocks, and an echo bubble in housing. There's a massive property bubble in Canada and Australia, and so on. With interest rates already at roughly zero, they don't have room for lowering them to "stimulate" the economy (to avoid the inevitable crash that's coming). Of course, getting people to spend money they don't have and businesses to start projects they shouldn't, isn't exactly good for the economy but hey.. whatever keeps the show going for a while longer. (Downvoters? It's at the very least possible that you just don't know that I'm right.. :) Do your homework, but not from mainstream media sources)

MCRed 11y ago
We have a democrat who is president, and who took over after a crisis during the term of a republican. (never mind that he was part of the cause of the crisis with his 1990s era "not lending to people who can't repay is racist" lawsuit against banks)... so the liberals of HN are highly motivated to believe that democrats are "responsible" and that they have "fixed the economy" after republicans "wrecked it". So when you point out that the king has no clothes, naturally you get downvoted. The current mess of the US economy is due to the choices of many politicians, in congress and the presidency, from both parties. Neither party should get a passing grade in this regard. This is why we need the government out of the economy, and let it work. Hell if it weren't for government the bad banks would have failed in 2008-- and we would have had a real recovery afterwards.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- sillygeese 11y ago
  Yeah, speaking the truth tends to get you downvoted. People are silly and emotional. But it's nice to see another independent thinker here. I've noticed you before. Don't pay much attention to the political circus though, the false choice between "Demopublicans". That's all smoke and mirrors to make you think you have a say in how you're "governed" (i.e. coerced). > The current mess of the US economy is due to the choices of many politicians, in congress and the presidency, from both parties. It's much deeper than that. The dollar was detached from the gold standard in 1971, and that was the beginning of "the real end". Before that, the establishment of the Federal Reserve in 1913 set the scene for all the economic trouble to come, and so on. Check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk > This is why we need the government out of the economy, and let it work. You're on the right track, but take it further. We need the government out of existence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE .. it is based on extortion, after all. What maintains governments is the belief in political authority: http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/Contents.pdf http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/Contents.pdf > Hell if it weren't for government the bad banks would have failed in 2008-- and we would have had a real recovery afterwards. That's certainly true.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  > if it weren't for government the bad banks would have failed in 2008-- and we would have had a real recovery afterwards. We would - but at the price of a much worse crash. (Which doesn't mean that the result, today, would have been any better - the further down the bottom was, the better the recovery has to be to reach the same point.)
- pnut 11y ago
  America is the greatest economic engine the world has ever known. It's not because we're situated on a mountain of rubies, or that we are intellectually superior to other countries. It's because of our system of government. This talk about the government being the problem, causing harm to the economy, really irritates me - the American economy owes its very existence to the American government and the private property protections it offers in the forms of regulations, legal system, social welfare programs, public education, military, etc etc etc. If you can't stomach the sausage making in the US without losing respect for all the greatness it permits, just stop paying attention and vote for whoever says what feels right, that's the American way. Your italicized real recovery sounds like another adrenaline boost in the arm, rather than the robust, sustainable recovery that is actually occurring.
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
I think you're getting downvoted because you're bringing a bunch of paranoid conspiracy-theory drivel, but no data. I mean, if you at least supplied some links to the data that you think support your view, that would make for a much more worthwhile post.

code4tee 11y ago

"In the US, for starters, there's a huge bubble in stocks" The median PE ratio of S&P 500 stocks at the moment is $14. That's certainly not "bubble" territory. The current market correction is surprising nobody, but I don't think many people consider this a bubble (at least for the US markets). Now there are certainly subsectors within the US that could be in bubble territory and could get hit really hard... unrealistically valued tech stocks being one of them. But again, across the whole US economy things are alright.

jazzyk 11y ago
I assume you meant 14, not $14. Anyway, it is false. S&P 500 P/E ratio was (until last week) around 19. The more accurate Shiller P/E was closer to 27. Way above the historical median. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/the-s-p-500-p-e-is-19-unless-it-s-actually-27-as-shiller-says http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/the-s-p-50...
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  The Shiller CAPE is 24.41, the historical average is 16.62: http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/table http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/table