9 ms·

I think you may be over-optimistic. I live in a poor neighborhood. Food stamps are the norm. "high calorie and high fat food being more affordable" is true, but

I think you may be over-optimistic. I live in a poor neighborhood. Food stamps are the norm. "high calorie and high fat food being more affordable" is true, but the food necessary for a good diet is completely absent. The only food in walking distance is the gas-station (think Big Gulps and Twinkies). This isn't an educational problem, it's a systemic socioeconomic one. And it's not likely to work itself out in the next 50 years.

mhuffman 11y ago
Surely everyone in your neighborhood is not subsisting on Big Gulps and Twinkies. When they get to the grocery store (even if it is just once per month) to use those food stamps, there is food other than twinkies and big gulps to be had, right? There are clearly systemic socioeconomic issues, but this seems to be an educational one. Being able to read the backs of packages and know what is better for you at the same price point. For example how $2 bag of beans are better for you than a $2 bag of chips (in general). Or $.75 canned vegetables are better for you than $1 canned beefaroni (in general). The amount that it takes to fill you up vs. the nutritional value / cost is obvious in those 2 examples but gets murky pretty quick for a lot of people. People do not need to live off of fresh produce and coconut waters to not be obese. I think there isn't enough public education in this area, and I believe that labeling requirements are not nearly as helpful as they could be and are often deceptive (in particular to serving portions) to consumers.
- hiddencost 11y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
  - mhuffman 11y ago
    The thing about food deserts is that it is a purely economic phenomenon. All of the fast food places and bodegas are getting money. If there were are push with dollars and food stamps for nutritious food, I assure you someone would find a way to take that money.
- omegaham 11y ago
  The biggest problem is that in poor areas, supermarkets / grocery stores don't set up shop because of crime and the smaller amount of money that they can get from customers. So, in general, poor areas are served by convenience stores. They might have some garbage produce that's going to be not fresh and relatively expensive, and they have a lot of cheap, unhealthy, calorie-rich food. In order to get to the grocery store, it's usually more than half an hour, if not more. And if they don't have a car, they're limited to what they can carry. And if they're living in a cramped apartment, their storage space is really limited. I have none of these problems - I live less than ten minutes from four different grocery stores, (Albertson's, Safeway, Fred Meyer, and Costco) have a freezer chest in addition to a regular refrigerator, and an enormous amount of cabinet space for non-perishable goods. Poor people have none of that. So, they buy shitty food from the bodega and the local Taco Bell so that they don't have to travel long distances and store food.
  - mhuffman 11y ago
    I understand the concept of food deserts, but what about all the poor obese children that do not live in urban areas riddled with crime so bad that stores can't even stay open? The urban areas in the South are few and far between, yet there is an overwhelming number of poor obese people. I agree in some cases it is logistics, but it would seem that in most cases it is just ignorance of dollar-per-nutritive-calorie. Even among well educated groups with money to spend this can be hard to figure out, but it really seems to be devastating the poor.
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      > The urban areas in the South are few and far between, yet there is an overwhelming number of poor obese people. I often drive from middle GA to Raleigh, NC to visit friends by way of state and US highways, rather than the interstate system. The number of poor or low population towns I pass through is quite high. In a similar vein to businesses not wanting to set up shop in poor, crime-ridden urban communities, it's just not economically sound to set up a full-featured grocery store in these small, poor towns.
- Raphmedia 11y ago
  > Surely everyone in your neighborhood is not subsisting on Big Gulps and Twinkies. Sadly, they do. Vegetables, pastas, lean meats? Those are strangers to a lot of people. Instead, people will buy TV-Diners, frozen french-fries, hot-dog sausages, mac n' cheese. All things that won't fill you up unless you eat double or triple portions. It is indeed an educational problem. We teach good habits do kids, but old habits die hard, especially for parents who don't have the time or education to build effective meals.
  - mhuffman 11y ago
    And the cycle starts over again. Single mothers with no idea about nutrition (it is not an easy subject!) do the best they can, but it is usually not very good at all, and pass that on to their children.
  - BrainInAJar 11y ago
    > It is indeed an educational problem. Have you ever been poor? When you get home from your 12th hour of working (at your second job) and need to feed yourself & the kids the last thing you have the energy to do is spend an hour cooking a nutritious meal, even if you had the time to go out to the supermarket (by bus) and the money to stock up on things that aren't going to go bad by the time you eat them. So you toss some fish fingers and frozen french fries in the oven to feed your family before you all go to bed to start the cycle again
    - Raphmedia 11y ago
      > Have you ever been poor? Very, yes. There are alternatives to eating bad quality food that are just as cheap and fast, sadly people are not made aware of it. Why would you take the time to find an alternative if you are not aware of the health problems coming from eating frozen french fries daily? A lot of poor parents would avoid such solutions and find alternative if they were truly aware of how bad the food they ingest truly is.
    - mc32 11y ago
      The way I did it was cook enough for multiple days and freeze the rest in day portions so you could defrost only what you needed. So, on your Sunday, cook three meals each enough to subsist on for two to three days. The food is not glamorous, but it can be tasty and nutritious.
- dummy7953 11y ago
  >Surely everyone in your neighborhood is not subsisting on Big Gulps and Twinkies. https://medium.com/science-and-technology/how-to-spot-a-weak-argument-83dacb1fe14c https://medium.com/science-and-technology/how-to-spot-a-weak...
- 27182818284 11y ago
  Education is a big component. Time is another. None of the people I routinely see at the grocery store or the multiple people I've known personally to use EBT were doing the really bad items like Twinkies and megagulps either way. Though the ones with more time and education tended to eat better than the other EBT users with less time (e.g., full-time job and single parent vs no children and part-time or no work)
mc32 11y ago
There seems to be a movement or reawakening where people have begun to prepare their own meals again. Some out of necessity some out of health concerns, but quite a few people who previously relied on processed foods are now,making their own. If this gathers momentum, which it seems it is, can only contribute to healthier eating. I think the outlook is better than you suppose.
- gress 11y ago
  Do you have any evidence at all for this movement?
cb18 11y ago
it's a systemic socioeconomic one. This is absolutely right. I'll post below my comment from a similar thread that considered this factor. ------- I think modern "foods," of the extracted and refined sugars sort, and artificial colors and flavors sort, definitely play a large role in this. I find all this searching for bio-chemical processes to blame obesity on pretty silly. A non-trivial portion of society has shown it is possible to not be obese. People have also shown it is possible to go from being obese to not being obese. There are several inter-playing factors that shoulder most the blame I would say. One major factor that seems to be missing from most conversations is that there is a huge mental factor in obesity I would surmise. And I think you're overlooking that when you ask why do some people feel satiety when others don't. I think obesity can rightly be considered a mental illness. Why do some people continue to eat when it does their body no good? Everyone probably does this on occasion, but why do obese people do it routinely? Most obese people I'm guessing would tell you that a lot of their eating has an emotional component, beyond a feeling of hunger. When you think about it, present day "food" companies, are just as bad as tobacco companies, arguably worse when you calculate the costs. How many people are suffering from diabetes, or potentially will in coming years, how many from other 'diseases of civilization,' what amount of health and monetary resources are expended on these preventable conditions each year? These are diseases of a civilization that is structured poorly. Just think about it, a civilization of overworked, overstressed, underslept, mindless-media over-exposed people who emotionally stuff their faces with garbage 'foods.' The "food" industry and regulation there of no doubt shoulders a lot of blame, just consider for some people, the majority of their food energy intake comes basically from candy. It appears that 'food' companies are exploitative of the low iq, low income segments of our society, but in the US I think that has a lot to do with agricultural policies that subsidize sugar and corn production and the like. And the people running these "food" companies navigate current market dynamics and govt incentives/subsidies to maximize shareholder returns, and that is producing negative health results for many people. So with these factors considered, I would say that there are better ways of addressing this issue than the search for obesity immunity conferring pills and the like.

mhuffman 11y ago

Surely everyone in your neighborhood is not subsisting on Big Gulps and Twinkies. When they get to the grocery store (even if it is just once per month) to use those food stamps, there is food other than twinkies and big gulps to be had, right? There are clearly systemic socioeconomic issues, but this seems to be an educational one. Being able to read the backs of packages and know what is better for you at the same price point. For example how $2 bag of beans are better for you than a $2 bag of chips (in general). Or $.75 canned vegetables are better for you than $1 canned beefaroni (in general). The amount that it takes to fill you up vs. the nutritional value / cost is obvious in those 2 examples but gets murky pretty quick for a lot of people. People do not need to live off of fresh produce and coconut waters to not be obese. I think there isn't enough public education in this area, and I believe that labeling requirements are not nearly as helpful as they could be and are often deceptive (in particular to serving portions) to consumers.

hiddencost 11y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
- mhuffman 11y ago
  The thing about food deserts is that it is a purely economic phenomenon. All of the fast food places and bodegas are getting money. If there were are push with dollars and food stamps for nutritious food, I assure you someone would find a way to take that money.
omegaham 11y ago
The biggest problem is that in poor areas, supermarkets / grocery stores don't set up shop because of crime and the smaller amount of money that they can get from customers. So, in general, poor areas are served by convenience stores. They might have some garbage produce that's going to be not fresh and relatively expensive, and they have a lot of cheap, unhealthy, calorie-rich food. In order to get to the grocery store, it's usually more than half an hour, if not more. And if they don't have a car, they're limited to what they can carry. And if they're living in a cramped apartment, their storage space is really limited. I have none of these problems - I live less than ten minutes from four different grocery stores, (Albertson's, Safeway, Fred Meyer, and Costco) have a freezer chest in addition to a regular refrigerator, and an enormous amount of cabinet space for non-perishable goods. Poor people have none of that. So, they buy shitty food from the bodega and the local Taco Bell so that they don't have to travel long distances and store food.
- mhuffman 11y ago
  I understand the concept of food deserts, but what about all the poor obese children that do not live in urban areas riddled with crime so bad that stores can't even stay open? The urban areas in the South are few and far between, yet there is an overwhelming number of poor obese people. I agree in some cases it is logistics, but it would seem that in most cases it is just ignorance of dollar-per-nutritive-calorie. Even among well educated groups with money to spend this can be hard to figure out, but it really seems to be devastating the poor.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    > The urban areas in the South are few and far between, yet there is an overwhelming number of poor obese people. I often drive from middle GA to Raleigh, NC to visit friends by way of state and US highways, rather than the interstate system. The number of poor or low population towns I pass through is quite high. In a similar vein to businesses not wanting to set up shop in poor, crime-ridden urban communities, it's just not economically sound to set up a full-featured grocery store in these small, poor towns.
Raphmedia 11y ago
> Surely everyone in your neighborhood is not subsisting on Big Gulps and Twinkies. Sadly, they do. Vegetables, pastas, lean meats? Those are strangers to a lot of people. Instead, people will buy TV-Diners, frozen french-fries, hot-dog sausages, mac n' cheese. All things that won't fill you up unless you eat double or triple portions. It is indeed an educational problem. We teach good habits do kids, but old habits die hard, especially for parents who don't have the time or education to build effective meals.
- mhuffman 11y ago
  And the cycle starts over again. Single mothers with no idea about nutrition (it is not an easy subject!) do the best they can, but it is usually not very good at all, and pass that on to their children.
- BrainInAJar 11y ago
  > It is indeed an educational problem. Have you ever been poor? When you get home from your 12th hour of working (at your second job) and need to feed yourself & the kids the last thing you have the energy to do is spend an hour cooking a nutritious meal, even if you had the time to go out to the supermarket (by bus) and the money to stock up on things that aren't going to go bad by the time you eat them. So you toss some fish fingers and frozen french fries in the oven to feed your family before you all go to bed to start the cycle again
  - Raphmedia 11y ago
    > Have you ever been poor? Very, yes. There are alternatives to eating bad quality food that are just as cheap and fast, sadly people are not made aware of it. Why would you take the time to find an alternative if you are not aware of the health problems coming from eating frozen french fries daily? A lot of poor parents would avoid such solutions and find alternative if they were truly aware of how bad the food they ingest truly is.
  - mc32 11y ago
    The way I did it was cook enough for multiple days and freeze the rest in day portions so you could defrost only what you needed. So, on your Sunday, cook three meals each enough to subsist on for two to three days. The food is not glamorous, but it can be tasty and nutritious.
dummy7953 11y ago
>Surely everyone in your neighborhood is not subsisting on Big Gulps and Twinkies. https://medium.com/science-and-technology/how-to-spot-a-weak-argument-83dacb1fe14c https://medium.com/science-and-technology/how-to-spot-a-weak...
27182818284 11y ago
Education is a big component. Time is another. None of the people I routinely see at the grocery store or the multiple people I've known personally to use EBT were doing the really bad items like Twinkies and megagulps either way. Though the ones with more time and education tended to eat better than the other EBT users with less time (e.g., full-time job and single parent vs no children and part-time or no work)

mc32 11y ago

There seems to be a movement or reawakening where people have begun to prepare their own meals again. Some out of necessity some out of health concerns, but quite a few people who previously relied on processed foods are now,making their own. If this gathers momentum, which it seems it is, can only contribute to healthier eating. I think the outlook is better than you suppose.

gress 11y ago
Do you have any evidence at all for this movement?

cb18 11y ago

it's a systemic socioeconomic one. This is absolutely right. I'll post below my comment from a similar thread that considered this factor. ------- I think modern "foods," of the extracted and refined sugars sort, and artificial colors and flavors sort, definitely play a large role in this. I find all this searching for bio-chemical processes to blame obesity on pretty silly. A non-trivial portion of society has shown it is possible to not be obese. People have also shown it is possible to go from being obese to not being obese. There are several inter-playing factors that shoulder most the blame I would say. One major factor that seems to be missing from most conversations is that there is a huge mental factor in obesity I would surmise. And I think you're overlooking that when you ask why do some people feel satiety when others don't. I think obesity can rightly be considered a mental illness. Why do some people continue to eat when it does their body no good? Everyone probably does this on occasion, but why do obese people do it routinely? Most obese people I'm guessing would tell you that a lot of their eating has an emotional component, beyond a feeling of hunger. When you think about it, present day "food" companies, are just as bad as tobacco companies, arguably worse when you calculate the costs. How many people are suffering from diabetes, or potentially will in coming years, how many from other 'diseases of civilization,' what amount of health and monetary resources are expended on these preventable conditions each year? These are diseases of a civilization that is structured poorly. Just think about it, a civilization of overworked, overstressed, underslept, mindless-media over-exposed people who emotionally stuff their faces with garbage 'foods.' The "food" industry and regulation there of no doubt shoulders a lot of blame, just consider for some people, the majority of their food energy intake comes basically from candy. It appears that 'food' companies are exploitative of the low iq, low income segments of our society, but in the US I think that has a lot to do with agricultural policies that subsidize sugar and corn production and the like. And the people running these "food" companies navigate current market dynamics and govt incentives/subsidies to maximize shareholder returns, and that is producing negative health results for many people. So with these factors considered, I would say that there are better ways of addressing this issue than the search for obesity immunity conferring pills and the like.