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Windows 10 users are being banned from torrent sites

363 points by ourmandave 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
adrianb 11y ago
Has anyone compiled a privacy checklist for Windows 10? What settings people have determined are best to use? I was somewhat forced to do the upgrade and didn't have the time to explore all settings (also they got more confusing since Windows 8).
- jsf666 11y ago
  IMO the thing is You can never be sure what the system is doing underneath. It's like a rooted box, you need to wipe it clean cause you can never be sure if the backdoor is still there
- mtgx 11y ago
  Here's what I did: 1) turned off everything in the Customization section at install 2) Used http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ 3) Used https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking Then, I installed a traffic monitoring tool - and surprise surprise - I still found some stuff trying to randomly connect to Microsoft's servers, similarly to what Peter Bright from Ars discovered (btw, "telemetry" can only be fully disabled on Enterprise version of Windows 10): http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w... I blocked those, too, and for now the Windows 10 spying monster seems to have settled down - BUT - new story points to the fact that you won't even know what Windows 10 updates will do in the future. That means that on machines where they see they can't spy on you anymore, they could push an update to bypass those protections and still spy on you. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/21/microsoft_will_explain_only_significant_windows_10_updates/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/21/microsoft_will_expla... Windows 10 really seems to be designed based on an NSA/law enforcement's wishlist. Any security or privacy measures you might take on it can be rendered useless by an update, and some articles even say Microsoft gets all of your typed keys (so all passwords). http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10 http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10 When I find some time these days, I'll wipe Windows 10 and never look back.
  - sillygeese 11y ago
    I wonder why you're getting downvoted.
    - Becca_J 11y ago
      Me too. Found it to be a useful and interesting post – thanks mtgx.
    - hobs 11y ago
      I am also seeing downvotes in this thread I would not have expected, for what appear to be legit issues with Windows 10, even if some of the rhetoric is a wee hyperbolic. I dont normally like to go meta and talk about voting, but this is the worst example I have probably ever seen.
    - UnoriginalGuy 11y ago
      I didn't but I suspect because their first link looks like a malware pinata. They should have just linked to Github, rather than to some site with a whole host of fake "download" buttons, that looks a lot like CNet/Download.com.
    - ionised 11y ago
      Microsoft employees maybe?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - ionised 11y ago
    > http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ This one looks interesting but I'd be wary of using it unless source code was available. The site it is hosted on doesn't appear to have much in the way of info about the author or anything either.
- r3bl 11y ago
  There were like 3-4 open source projects posted here (yeah, people don't get that the point of publishing an open source project is to actually collaborate) aiming at making privacy on Windows 10 one click away. As far as I can tell, they all did a miserable job and blocked some legit features (like Windows Update) and domains and never updated their projects once we told them about the legit features they're blocking. So, there's plenty of checklists out there, but none of them is actually useful at the moment.
  - kijin 11y ago
    The problem with a one-click approach is that one person's "legit feature" is another person's privacy nightmare. I have no use for Cortana, so for me, it's nothing more than an annoyance to be disabled. But for others, it might be the one reason why they upgraded to Windows 10. Likewise, some tutorials out there advocate disabling Windows Defender, but I consider (at least some parts of) Windows Defender to be a legitimate feature. I'm trying out Windows 10 in a VM, and so far I've managed to disable: everything in the privacy control panel, advertising ID in Edge, Cortana, OneDrive, web search from the taskbar, feedback, telemetry, and the half-crippled Start menu. Now it's just a slightly faster and flatter Windows 7. I'm not sure if I'll ever let it out of the hypervisor though.
Phoenix26 11y ago
More info/Original story -> https://torrentfreak.com/torrent-trackers-ban-windows-10-over-privacy-concerns-150822/ https://torrentfreak.com/torrent-trackers-ban-windows-10-ove...
- msravi 11y ago
  The "password sharing" feature of Windows 10 is sufficient reason for me to never allow anyone with Windows 10 access to my network. Ever. That's the way I'll opt out. Not by changing my SSID.
  - Amezarak 11y ago
    Sharing your password via Wi-Fi Sense to your friend gives him access to the network, but no knowledge of your password and no ability to share it. Sharing your password via word-of-mouth gives your friend your password and access to your network and the ability to share it further.
    - xnzakg 11y ago
      You know, you can always ask your friend to let you enter the password on his computer yourself without telling them. It will be stored on their computer in both cases anyway.
      - WorldMaker 11y ago
        If you are already doing that, then you also don't have to worry about WifiSense as the checkbox to enable it for that SSID is right there (and only there) and you can make sure that you don't check it when you type in your password.
    - Spoom 11y ago
      But if the friend who got the password via Wi-Fi Sense has access to the network, that means that at some point, the password had to be in clear text on their computer (since otherwise it wouldn't be able to authenticate to the network). This means that at best, they use reversible encryption, and at worst, it's just stored in cleartext somewhere (this being Microsoft, my guess would be in the registry). I guarantee that someone will create a tool to get wi-fi passwords shared to them if there isn't one already.
josteink 11y ago
Last time I read something about this, it was specifically the original underground sites and trackers which were banning Windows 10 users. Not sites like TPB, KAT, etc. Any news on if this has changed?
- zexmitrov 11y ago
  http://pxc-coding.com/blog/donotspy10-1000/ http://pxc-coding.com/blog/donotspy10-1000/
  - agopaul 11y ago
    After reading Krebs' book, I think twice before running this kind of tool, even if it looks legit
    - fredoliveira 11y ago
      A little OT, but you piqued my interested. Is this Spam Nation? Is it good?
      - agopaul 11y ago
        Yes it is, I just finished it. Although his writing style isn't always consistent, the book is totally worth reading just to get a clue on how 'cyber criminals' (used to) operate on a global scale. I said 'used to' because the facts narrated in the book occurred mainly in 2009-2011, but in the final chapter there is also some recent events. Although the title refers to the spam problem, It's not just about spam itself, but it gives a full image of the surrounding cybercrime environment. Give it a try ;)
sz4kerto 11y ago
This is an overkill I believe. Are Android devices banned from torrent sites? Chromebooks? Windows 10 is a cloud-based operating system, as is Android and ChromeOS -- most of the code runs locally, but it heavily relies on cloud functionality. It is extremely naive to think that if MS tells you in the EULA that many services in the OS work based on the user behavior suddenly opens up new doors for spying. If MS wanted to spy on you, they could have done that already (they might or might not, I don't know, but it's certainly not the EULA that prevents them from doing that). /snarky comment: I guess most people on the torrent sites already give full permissions to the torchlight app on their phone.
- mtgx 11y ago
  It's not overkill when a company scans every single file you have in your PC, keeps those logs on its servers, and then eventually can and likely will share that information with others, from law enforcement to MPAA or even advertising companies. Microsoft has already admitted in its "privacy" policy that it can and will do such thing: > “We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), --- when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ---.” [1] I mean - are you kidding me? Like "whenever we'll feel like it"? That's so reassuring that you respect your customers's privacy, Microsoft...Really solid privacy policy right there. [1] - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privacy-settings/ http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privac...
  - Amezarak 11y ago
    You left out the circumstances under which they will share your data. > comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies; > protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone; > operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or > protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services - however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer's private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.asp... Additionally, the privacy policy section you and I are quoting applies to many Microsoft services, including, for example, OneDrive. Otherwise, the "private folder" data they're talking about could only be whatever bits and scraps telemetry and Windows Defender picks up, based on my reading. That seems perfectly reasonable and also confirms they won't be sending any of your data to the MPAA.
stinos 11y ago
But there is less concrete evidence to support the pirates’ most worrying claims. less, or just none (e.g. the claim about data being sent from local disk)? In any case this is turning to be far from ideal for MS and makes me wonder if they really didn't see this coming when defaulting to not-so-private defaults: I already know people asking 'I heard this new Windows sends all your data to Microsoft, is that true?' because they picked up something vague about privacy in the local newspaper..
- pdkl95 11y ago
  It doesn't matter much what the current implementation does, when Microsoft has asserted (and demonstrated in practice) that they can send arbitrary updates at any time (and without explanation).
- keithpeter 11y ago
  I use a free operating system (Linux, currently Slackware) because I take property rights seriously. Years ago I decided that I did not want to use 'cracked' software and didn't have much money. Strange how things turn out.
  - kefka 11y ago
    > I use a free operating system (Linux, currently Slackware) because I take property rights seriously. That's weird. Physical property rights are very different to Intellectual Property Rights (copyright, patent, trademark). IPR can lead you to absurd conclusions: I own a DVD, and copy data to it, and the data is under copyright, the DVD now belongs to 2 different parties ?! Or, if I develop a widget, and manufacture it, it can somehow violate a patent and I now owe them large sums of money... or the patent holder can use the customers that purchased them?! Or I grow crops on my field using seed stock form our family. And Monsanto patented plants' spores cross-pollinate into your field. Now, you either are required to destroy your seed stock because of genetic pollution, buy Monsanto seed, or lose your farm. Yet again, IPR removes rights from property holders. So yes, you may take property rights seriously. But IPR leads to insane conclusions and absurd reasoning. IPR exists to take physical property rights away from you.
homakov 11y ago
Sounds like clickbait, did not find content interesting. It makes you think windows 10 users a banned by microsoft. Should be "torrent sites ban windows 10 users".
kinosang 11y ago
This title gives ambiguity to readers.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
x5n1 11y ago
Basically M$ adoption of this strategy is the death knell for any semblance of privacy on the PC. It's amazing how far we have come to accepting such draconian measures in order to further marketing. There is still time people, come on over to Linux, the privacy here is still fine and will continue to be fine. And if you come over, then all the desktop software makers will port their software to Linux and all the collapse of privacy will be a bad dream. Barring that, every single thought you have you will not be able to record or publish without the surveillance apparatus of your country and the US knowing about it. This is not some unfounded fear this is pretty much the current reality. Anyone who doesn't agree lives in a Pre-Snowden fictional world.
- datalist 11y ago
  $? (and no, I dont mean the shell's exit code) The 90s called and would like to have their hatred back. As for privacy issues in your recommendation -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28user_interface%29#Privacy_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28user_interface%29#Pri...
  - x5n1 11y ago
    Yes he 90s called and would like to have their privacy back too. But we can't all get what we want can we?
  - rbanffy 11y ago
    You know that, unlike Windows, you can turn it off.
    - datalist 11y ago
      Except for telemetry (and that you can turn off in the Enterprise edition as well) you can turn off all these features.
      - asantos3 11y ago
        You can't know if they are truly disabled, unlike ubuntu which is nowhere near what windows 10 does.
datalist 11y ago
What does that even mean? How would they ban Windows 10 users from trackers? A bit of more details wouldnt be bad.
- moondowner 11y ago
  There's an easy way to do that: when the browser makes a request to some web site, the server serving it will detect the browser's user agent (which the browser sends with the request to the server) and will check the operating system specified. If it's Windows 10 - don't fulfill the request. Here's a random example of user agent detection http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163350/server-side-browser-detection-node-js http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163350/server-side-brows...
  - gajjanag 11y ago
    Not that the average user necessarily knows this, but in principle can't the user agent string sent by the browser be spoofed?
    - datalist 11y ago
      Sure, but its not about user agents.
      - benburton 11y ago
        How else would you detect the operating system of the client making the request?
        nirvdrum 11y ago
        I have no idea if the the trackers are doing this or not, but you could use TCP/IP stack fingerprinting. It's a bit costly, so I doubt it's in use. But it could be one way to achieve it. It's certainly not 100% accurate, but my experience with nmap is the detection works surprisingly well: https://nmap.org/book/man-os-detection.html https://nmap.org/book/man-os-detection.html
jsf666 11y ago
Shouldn't the built-in botnet/spyware push all major companies and goverments away from Windows? I don't know how they would be ok with all they're data sent/shared with them (and probably a dozen of US agencies). It's like buying a rooted by design system
- Beltiras 11y ago
  The Enterprise version (reportedly) can disable the call-home "feature". Even that is in contention thou. Yes. I think this is a massive mistake on Microsoft's part.
  - jsf666 11y ago
    Or alteast you think it does. The thing is as I said with a rooted box, after it's rooted you can never be sure there ain't no backdoor left. It doesn't need to regularly communicate with an external server, it can probably dump data at some odd dates so it's much harder to track. The thing is there is no damage control with a botnet client by design like Windows 10
    - Beltiras 11y ago
      Didn't I qualify my statement and choose words to castigate Microsoft? It's amazing to me that keylogging is now reduced to injecting something into hosts and decoding their protocol. The latter may be tricky but knowing MS security record, inevitable.
- rjaco31 11y ago
  Russia has already forbidden Windows 10 use on any governmental service.
  - mrtsepelev 11y ago
    As far as I know they didn't. But some government folks made a request to make this possible
  - 11y ago
ohitsdom 11y ago
Has there been any response or explanation from Microsoft yet with this situation?
- sillygeese 11y ago
  Does it matter? If there's enough pressure for MS to respond, they'll spew some bullshit to placate the masses. What they won't do is change their spying ways. Besides, it's probably not even all Microsoft's fault. I bet governments are pressuring them to spy on us on their behalf.
- JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
  The situation that illegal torrent sites are ambiguously banning Windows 10 users? What kind of response do you expect from them?
  - ohitsdom 11y ago
    I mean a response now that there has been a sizable backlash (especially from the tech community) on the privacy settings on Windows 10. The consistent "phoning home" no matter what privacy settings are used.
    - JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
      The backlash is a bit of an overreaction, although justified due to the lack of total transparency of what's being sent. This is no different than any other cloud oriented services offered by Google/Apple, etc. Edit: blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggerated The phoning home isn't new, is it? Licensing validation was done every few months on Windows 7. The only thing Microsoft is guilty of SO FAR that I'm aware of, is providing slightly better transparency over the data it sends to its' and third parties' servers, and now they're getting called out for it.
      - ohitsdom 11y ago
        This isn't communication every few months. More like every hour, and it's only that sparse when locking down the privacy settings. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...
deutronium 11y ago
Does anyone know how the trackers themselves can detect Win10 users, is the Win10 TCP/IP stack sufficiently different to previous versions of Windows that you can fingerprint it?
- tokenizerrr 11y ago
  Presumably just the useragent and the javascript navigator.appVersion.
  - deutronium 11y ago
    In the article it talks about trackers blocking access though
    - tokenizerrr 11y ago
      Yes, private trackers. These private trackers can only be accessed if you have an account on their website, where you then download the .torrent files.
exar0815 11y ago
It is very well possible that behaviour like This will result in massive problems in the European Union with its much more atrict privacy laws. Microsoft should ask Intel about huge fines.
- AlexandrB 11y ago
  > It is very well possible that behaviour like This will result in massive problems in the European Union with its much more atrict privacy laws. Unless TPP passes[1]. One of it's provisions may result in a weakening of privacy laws. Unfortunately it's hard to tell since the whole thing is secret. [1] http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/07/16/TPP-and-Personal-Data/ http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/07/16/TPP-and-Personal-Data/
analog31 11y ago
Ask HN: Could Win10 data leaks be managed by some kind of firewall or parental-control software? I mean, if we know what sites are being accessed, just block those sites.
- jand 11y ago
  There are numerous sites (eg [1]) which claim to provide a list of FQDNs associated with Windows 10 telematics. These sites usually advise you to reroute those FQDN to localhost via the hosts file. To my point of view this is a endless game of cat-and-mice... finding the (changing?) telematics FQDNs and updating the hosts file. By design this cannot be a permanent solution. [1] http://news.softpedia.com/news/blocking-these-domains-stops-windows-10-from-phoning-home-488630.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/blocking-these-domains-stops-...
  - ascagnel_ 11y ago
    Could you filter this traffic on a network level? Having to provision and update every Windows PC on a network would be an administrative nightmare.
  - 7952 11y ago
    There is a weird catch 22 in that the pervasive use of TLS makes it much more difficult to firewall things like this. I suppose you could setup a MITM that checks everything before it leaves your network but that just feels wrong.
- AlexandrB 11y ago
  Yes, but the lists I've seen look huge [1]. It also requires 3rd party software/hardware to block since the name resolution for many of the endpoints seems to be hardcoded into dnsapi.dll. There's also no guarantee that some security update will add additional server names that Windows can talk to. Basically you end up in a security arms race with your OS provider - which is hard if not impossible to win. [1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/?comments=1&post=29559695 http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...
diego_moita 11y ago
This is small stuff, compared to the headaches MS and Windows 10 will have with foreign governments. Snowden showed us that the US regularly spied on the German, Brazilian, Mexican and French governments. I wonder how anxious those governments are for Windows 10 adoption.
roosterjm2k2 11y ago
So... Microsoft wants to stop piracy by trying to read users contents (or so they say) .. So in response, torrent sources help them by stoping them from downloading... So torrent sites are giving MS what they want?
- userbinator 11y ago
  Indeed, I can see this turning into a "if you don't use Windows 10 you must be a pirate/have something to hide" sort of argument. Ten years ago, when filesharing was the awesome new thing, that would've been almost a compliment; but given how the population's view of piracy seems to have changed now, I don't think that will be the case anymore.
  - zkhalique 11y ago
    What is the population's view of piracy now?
    - ionised 11y ago
      Misinformed due to the large scale FUD campaigns of copyright holders and lobbyists.
wcchandler 11y ago
Hey Chicken Little, how's the sky? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny
- JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
  When I read the #1 comment here by someone I can't depict other than George Orwell himself, I started shouting "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!"
zkhalique 11y ago
Next version of Windows will let you spoof the OS, because of all the backlash :P
EGreg 11y ago
The genie is out of the bottle. It's not just the NSA that wants your data - it's everybody! http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169
Kequc 11y ago
> The controversy began because of a line in Microsoft’s service agreement. This allows Microsoft to issue updates that will stop users “playing counterfeit games,” according to TorrentFreak. Game companies have been issuing updates that stop users "playing counterfeit games" ever since it was possible to do so. Microsoft is a game company, or one of the divisions are. It's interesting that they would stop there, rather than say "use of counterfeit software". That would be much broader. Microsoft has been doing that for some time so what is the justification for gamers all of a sudden freaking out.
- scholia 11y ago
  That bit of the service agreement came across from the Xbox One agreement, just as some other parts came across from Windows Phone. It's part of what happens when you have an OS that runs on different types of device, which is the aim for Windows 10.
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  The justification is that they didn't know about it before.
amyjess 11y ago
I have to wonder how soon it will be before torrent clients just start faking their user agents and pretending to be from older versions of Windows.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Vendan 11y ago
Personally, I'll be getting a windows 10 box running soon enough. It's going to be headless and only have steam installed on it, and I'll be using it to play windows only games over steam in-home streaming on my linux desktop and laptop.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
I'm glad to see HN's mindless love of Nadella going out the window. I've been railing against his leadership for quite some time and have often been told how wonderful he is, apparantly because he's not Steve Ballmer. I can't imagine anyone defending his policies now. This scenario is far, far worse than anything during the Ballmer/Gates years. Nadella may be the CEO that watches the world shift to a non-MS OS in significant, company threatening, numbers. Its incredible how he just couldn't deliver "Windows 7 but better," instead of this privacy nightmare OS. And just to nitpick, we had to change our patching policy at work considering how badly QA has fallen under Nadella's watch. Pretty much every patch Tuesday is a problem for us. There's always a rotten patch that breaks something. I also am unimpressed by all the marketing surrounding the start menu coming back. Its barely a start menu, its just a panel to stick Metro-style widgets onto. The default widgets are a lot junk. The Win7 defaults of Documents, Computer, Control Panel, Printers, etc was near perfect from a productivity perspective.
roflmyeggo 11y ago
I wonder if Apple will go this direction in the future..
- feld 11y ago
  Not a chance. They're trying to position themselves as the security and privacy focused player in the industry.
  - natch 11y ago
    Yes and it's not just positioning, it's a core philosophy.
    - feld 11y ago
      Which is why I'm on board. I hope others take note so the "right to security and privacy" isn't only within reach of those who can afford Apple devices.
    - nickysielicki 11y ago
      No, it's just positioning in the wake of Snowden leaks. If it was a core philosophy/value that the company collective felt then this image wouldn't exist: https://imgur.com/iHEtqaE.jpg https://imgur.com/iHEtqaE.jpg
malkia 11y ago
Happily using OSX, Linux, and Chrome (with crouton). I only need Windows now if I want to play a game, but the consoles at home, and steam under crouton/linux/osx solves that for some of the games I play. Nothing else really!
macns 11y ago
Great news for Linux. Reading almost every comment (out of 270 atm), I see only good in this, windows will surely lose a small percentage of it's user base, and (hopefully) a lot more in the long run.

363 points by ourmandave 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Has anyone compiled a privacy checklist for Windows 10? What settings people have determined are best to use? I was somewhat forced to do the upgrade and didn't have the time to explore all settings (also they got more confusing since Windows 8).

jsf666 11y ago
IMO the thing is You can never be sure what the system is doing underneath. It's like a rooted box, you need to wipe it clean cause you can never be sure if the backdoor is still there
mtgx 11y ago
Here's what I did: 1) turned off everything in the Customization section at install 2) Used http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ 3) Used https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking Then, I installed a traffic monitoring tool - and surprise surprise - I still found some stuff trying to randomly connect to Microsoft's servers, similarly to what Peter Bright from Ars discovered (btw, "telemetry" can only be fully disabled on Enterprise version of Windows 10): http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w... I blocked those, too, and for now the Windows 10 spying monster seems to have settled down - BUT - new story points to the fact that you won't even know what Windows 10 updates will do in the future. That means that on machines where they see they can't spy on you anymore, they could push an update to bypass those protections and still spy on you. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/21/microsoft_will_explain_only_significant_windows_10_updates/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/21/microsoft_will_expla... Windows 10 really seems to be designed based on an NSA/law enforcement's wishlist. Any security or privacy measures you might take on it can be rendered useless by an update, and some articles even say Microsoft gets all of your typed keys (so all passwords). http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10 http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10 When I find some time these days, I'll wipe Windows 10 and never look back.
- sillygeese 11y ago
  I wonder why you're getting downvoted.
  - Becca_J 11y ago
    Me too. Found it to be a useful and interesting post – thanks mtgx.
  - hobs 11y ago
    I am also seeing downvotes in this thread I would not have expected, for what appear to be legit issues with Windows 10, even if some of the rhetoric is a wee hyperbolic. I dont normally like to go meta and talk about voting, but this is the worst example I have probably ever seen.
  - UnoriginalGuy 11y ago
    I didn't but I suspect because their first link looks like a malware pinata. They should have just linked to Github, rather than to some site with a whole host of fake "download" buttons, that looks a lot like CNet/Download.com.
  - ionised 11y ago
    Microsoft employees maybe?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- ionised 11y ago
  > http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/ This one looks interesting but I'd be wary of using it unless source code was available. The site it is hosted on doesn't appear to have much in the way of info about the author or anything either.
r3bl 11y ago
There were like 3-4 open source projects posted here (yeah, people don't get that the point of publishing an open source project is to actually collaborate) aiming at making privacy on Windows 10 one click away. As far as I can tell, they all did a miserable job and blocked some legit features (like Windows Update) and domains and never updated their projects once we told them about the legit features they're blocking. So, there's plenty of checklists out there, but none of them is actually useful at the moment.
- kijin 11y ago
  The problem with a one-click approach is that one person's "legit feature" is another person's privacy nightmare. I have no use for Cortana, so for me, it's nothing more than an annoyance to be disabled. But for others, it might be the one reason why they upgraded to Windows 10. Likewise, some tutorials out there advocate disabling Windows Defender, but I consider (at least some parts of) Windows Defender to be a legitimate feature. I'm trying out Windows 10 in a VM, and so far I've managed to disable: everything in the privacy control panel, advertising ID in Edge, Cortana, OneDrive, web search from the taskbar, feedback, telemetry, and the half-crippled Start menu. Now it's just a slightly faster and flatter Windows 7. I'm not sure if I'll ever let it out of the hypervisor though.

Phoenix26 11y ago

More info/Original story -> https://torrentfreak.com/torrent-trackers-ban-windows-10-over-privacy-concerns-150822/ https://torrentfreak.com/torrent-trackers-ban-windows-10-ove...

msravi 11y ago
The "password sharing" feature of Windows 10 is sufficient reason for me to never allow anyone with Windows 10 access to my network. Ever. That's the way I'll opt out. Not by changing my SSID.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  Sharing your password via Wi-Fi Sense to your friend gives him access to the network, but no knowledge of your password and no ability to share it. Sharing your password via word-of-mouth gives your friend your password and access to your network and the ability to share it further.
  - xnzakg 11y ago
    You know, you can always ask your friend to let you enter the password on his computer yourself without telling them. It will be stored on their computer in both cases anyway.
    - WorldMaker 11y ago
      If you are already doing that, then you also don't have to worry about WifiSense as the checkbox to enable it for that SSID is right there (and only there) and you can make sure that you don't check it when you type in your password.
  - Spoom 11y ago
    But if the friend who got the password via Wi-Fi Sense has access to the network, that means that at some point, the password had to be in clear text on their computer (since otherwise it wouldn't be able to authenticate to the network). This means that at best, they use reversible encryption, and at worst, it's just stored in cleartext somewhere (this being Microsoft, my guess would be in the registry). I guarantee that someone will create a tool to get wi-fi passwords shared to them if there isn't one already.

josteink 11y ago

Last time I read something about this, it was specifically the original underground sites and trackers which were banning Windows 10 users. Not sites like TPB, KAT, etc. Any news on if this has changed?

zexmitrov 11y ago
http://pxc-coding.com/blog/donotspy10-1000/ http://pxc-coding.com/blog/donotspy10-1000/
- agopaul 11y ago
  After reading Krebs' book, I think twice before running this kind of tool, even if it looks legit
  - fredoliveira 11y ago
    A little OT, but you piqued my interested. Is this Spam Nation? Is it good?
    - agopaul 11y ago
      Yes it is, I just finished it. Although his writing style isn't always consistent, the book is totally worth reading just to get a clue on how 'cyber criminals' (used to) operate on a global scale. I said 'used to' because the facts narrated in the book occurred mainly in 2009-2011, but in the final chapter there is also some recent events. Although the title refers to the spam problem, It's not just about spam itself, but it gives a full image of the surrounding cybercrime environment. Give it a try ;)

sz4kerto 11y ago

This is an overkill I believe. Are Android devices banned from torrent sites? Chromebooks? Windows 10 is a cloud-based operating system, as is Android and ChromeOS -- most of the code runs locally, but it heavily relies on cloud functionality. It is extremely naive to think that if MS tells you in the EULA that many services in the OS work based on the user behavior suddenly opens up new doors for spying. If MS wanted to spy on you, they could have done that already (they might or might not, I don't know, but it's certainly not the EULA that prevents them from doing that). /snarky comment: I guess most people on the torrent sites already give full permissions to the torchlight app on their phone.

mtgx 11y ago
It's not overkill when a company scans every single file you have in your PC, keeps those logs on its servers, and then eventually can and likely will share that information with others, from law enforcement to MPAA or even advertising companies. Microsoft has already admitted in its "privacy" policy that it can and will do such thing: > “We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), --- when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ---.” [1] I mean - are you kidding me? Like "whenever we'll feel like it"? That's so reassuring that you respect your customers's privacy, Microsoft...Really solid privacy policy right there. [1] - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privacy-settings/ http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privac...
- Amezarak 11y ago
  You left out the circumstances under which they will share your data. > comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies; > protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone; > operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or > protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services - however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer's private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.asp... Additionally, the privacy policy section you and I are quoting applies to many Microsoft services, including, for example, OneDrive. Otherwise, the "private folder" data they're talking about could only be whatever bits and scraps telemetry and Windows Defender picks up, based on my reading. That seems perfectly reasonable and also confirms they won't be sending any of your data to the MPAA.

stinos 11y ago

But there is less concrete evidence to support the pirates’ most worrying claims. less, or just none (e.g. the claim about data being sent from local disk)? In any case this is turning to be far from ideal for MS and makes me wonder if they really didn't see this coming when defaulting to not-so-private defaults: I already know people asking 'I heard this new Windows sends all your data to Microsoft, is that true?' because they picked up something vague about privacy in the local newspaper..

pdkl95 11y ago
It doesn't matter much what the current implementation does, when Microsoft has asserted (and demonstrated in practice) that they can send arbitrary updates at any time (and without explanation).
keithpeter 11y ago
I use a free operating system (Linux, currently Slackware) because I take property rights seriously. Years ago I decided that I did not want to use 'cracked' software and didn't have much money. Strange how things turn out.
- kefka 11y ago
  > I use a free operating system (Linux, currently Slackware) because I take property rights seriously. That's weird. Physical property rights are very different to Intellectual Property Rights (copyright, patent, trademark). IPR can lead you to absurd conclusions: I own a DVD, and copy data to it, and the data is under copyright, the DVD now belongs to 2 different parties ?! Or, if I develop a widget, and manufacture it, it can somehow violate a patent and I now owe them large sums of money... or the patent holder can use the customers that purchased them?! Or I grow crops on my field using seed stock form our family. And Monsanto patented plants' spores cross-pollinate into your field. Now, you either are required to destroy your seed stock because of genetic pollution, buy Monsanto seed, or lose your farm. Yet again, IPR removes rights from property holders. So yes, you may take property rights seriously. But IPR leads to insane conclusions and absurd reasoning. IPR exists to take physical property rights away from you.

homakov 11y ago

Sounds like clickbait, did not find content interesting. It makes you think windows 10 users a banned by microsoft. Should be "torrent sites ban windows 10 users".

kinosang 11y ago

This title gives ambiguity to readers.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

x5n1 11y ago

Basically M$ adoption of this strategy is the death knell for any semblance of privacy on the PC. It's amazing how far we have come to accepting such draconian measures in order to further marketing. There is still time people, come on over to Linux, the privacy here is still fine and will continue to be fine. And if you come over, then all the desktop software makers will port their software to Linux and all the collapse of privacy will be a bad dream. Barring that, every single thought you have you will not be able to record or publish without the surveillance apparatus of your country and the US knowing about it. This is not some unfounded fear this is pretty much the current reality. Anyone who doesn't agree lives in a Pre-Snowden fictional world.

datalist 11y ago
$? (and no, I dont mean the shell's exit code) The 90s called and would like to have their hatred back. As for privacy issues in your recommendation -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28user_interface%29#Privacy_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28user_interface%29#Pri...
- x5n1 11y ago
  Yes he 90s called and would like to have their privacy back too. But we can't all get what we want can we?
- rbanffy 11y ago
  You know that, unlike Windows, you can turn it off.
  - datalist 11y ago
    Except for telemetry (and that you can turn off in the Enterprise edition as well) you can turn off all these features.
    - asantos3 11y ago
      You can't know if they are truly disabled, unlike ubuntu which is nowhere near what windows 10 does.

datalist 11y ago

What does that even mean? How would they ban Windows 10 users from trackers? A bit of more details wouldnt be bad.

moondowner 11y ago
There's an easy way to do that: when the browser makes a request to some web site, the server serving it will detect the browser's user agent (which the browser sends with the request to the server) and will check the operating system specified. If it's Windows 10 - don't fulfill the request. Here's a random example of user agent detection http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163350/server-side-browser-detection-node-js http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163350/server-side-brows...
- gajjanag 11y ago
  Not that the average user necessarily knows this, but in principle can't the user agent string sent by the browser be spoofed?
  - datalist 11y ago
    Sure, but its not about user agents.
    - benburton 11y ago
      How else would you detect the operating system of the client making the request?
      - nirvdrum 11y ago
        I have no idea if the the trackers are doing this or not, but you could use TCP/IP stack fingerprinting. It's a bit costly, so I doubt it's in use. But it could be one way to achieve it. It's certainly not 100% accurate, but my experience with nmap is the detection works surprisingly well: https://nmap.org/book/man-os-detection.html https://nmap.org/book/man-os-detection.html

jsf666 11y ago

Shouldn't the built-in botnet/spyware push all major companies and goverments away from Windows? I don't know how they would be ok with all they're data sent/shared with them (and probably a dozen of US agencies). It's like buying a rooted by design system

Beltiras 11y ago
The Enterprise version (reportedly) can disable the call-home "feature". Even that is in contention thou. Yes. I think this is a massive mistake on Microsoft's part.
- jsf666 11y ago
  Or alteast you think it does. The thing is as I said with a rooted box, after it's rooted you can never be sure there ain't no backdoor left. It doesn't need to regularly communicate with an external server, it can probably dump data at some odd dates so it's much harder to track. The thing is there is no damage control with a botnet client by design like Windows 10
  - Beltiras 11y ago
    Didn't I qualify my statement and choose words to castigate Microsoft? It's amazing to me that keylogging is now reduced to injecting something into hosts and decoding their protocol. The latter may be tricky but knowing MS security record, inevitable.
rjaco31 11y ago
Russia has already forbidden Windows 10 use on any governmental service.
- mrtsepelev 11y ago
  As far as I know they didn't. But some government folks made a request to make this possible
- 11y ago

ohitsdom 11y ago

Has there been any response or explanation from Microsoft yet with this situation?

sillygeese 11y ago
Does it matter? If there's enough pressure for MS to respond, they'll spew some bullshit to placate the masses. What they won't do is change their spying ways. Besides, it's probably not even all Microsoft's fault. I bet governments are pressuring them to spy on us on their behalf.
JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
The situation that illegal torrent sites are ambiguously banning Windows 10 users? What kind of response do you expect from them?
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  I mean a response now that there has been a sizable backlash (especially from the tech community) on the privacy settings on Windows 10. The consistent "phoning home" no matter what privacy settings are used.
  - JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
    The backlash is a bit of an overreaction, although justified due to the lack of total transparency of what's being sent. This is no different than any other cloud oriented services offered by Google/Apple, etc. Edit: blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggerated The phoning home isn't new, is it? Licensing validation was done every few months on Windows 7. The only thing Microsoft is guilty of SO FAR that I'm aware of, is providing slightly better transparency over the data it sends to its' and third parties' servers, and now they're getting called out for it.
    - ohitsdom 11y ago
      This isn't communication every few months. More like every hour, and it's only that sparse when locking down the privacy settings. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...

deutronium 11y ago

Does anyone know how the trackers themselves can detect Win10 users, is the Win10 TCP/IP stack sufficiently different to previous versions of Windows that you can fingerprint it?

tokenizerrr 11y ago
Presumably just the useragent and the javascript navigator.appVersion.
- deutronium 11y ago
  In the article it talks about trackers blocking access though
  - tokenizerrr 11y ago
    Yes, private trackers. These private trackers can only be accessed if you have an account on their website, where you then download the .torrent files.

exar0815 11y ago

It is very well possible that behaviour like This will result in massive problems in the European Union with its much more atrict privacy laws. Microsoft should ask Intel about huge fines.

AlexandrB 11y ago
> It is very well possible that behaviour like This will result in massive problems in the European Union with its much more atrict privacy laws. Unless TPP passes[1]. One of it's provisions may result in a weakening of privacy laws. Unfortunately it's hard to tell since the whole thing is secret. [1] http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/07/16/TPP-and-Personal-Data/ http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/07/16/TPP-and-Personal-Data/

analog31 11y ago

Ask HN: Could Win10 data leaks be managed by some kind of firewall or parental-control software? I mean, if we know what sites are being accessed, just block those sites.

jand 11y ago
There are numerous sites (eg [1]) which claim to provide a list of FQDNs associated with Windows 10 telematics. These sites usually advise you to reroute those FQDN to localhost via the hosts file. To my point of view this is a endless game of cat-and-mice... finding the (changing?) telematics FQDNs and updating the hosts file. By design this cannot be a permanent solution. [1] http://news.softpedia.com/news/blocking-these-domains-stops-windows-10-from-phoning-home-488630.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/blocking-these-domains-stops-...
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  Could you filter this traffic on a network level? Having to provision and update every Windows PC on a network would be an administrative nightmare.
- 7952 11y ago
  There is a weird catch 22 in that the pervasive use of TLS makes it much more difficult to firewall things like this. I suppose you could setup a MITM that checks everything before it leaves your network but that just feels wrong.
AlexandrB 11y ago
Yes, but the lists I've seen look huge [1]. It also requires 3rd party software/hardware to block since the name resolution for many of the endpoints seems to be hardcoded into dnsapi.dll. There's also no guarantee that some security update will add additional server names that Windows can talk to. Basically you end up in a security arms race with your OS provider - which is hard if not impossible to win. [1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/?comments=1&post=29559695 http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...

diego_moita 11y ago

This is small stuff, compared to the headaches MS and Windows 10 will have with foreign governments. Snowden showed us that the US regularly spied on the German, Brazilian, Mexican and French governments. I wonder how anxious those governments are for Windows 10 adoption.

roosterjm2k2 11y ago

So... Microsoft wants to stop piracy by trying to read users contents (or so they say) .. So in response, torrent sources help them by stoping them from downloading... So torrent sites are giving MS what they want?

userbinator 11y ago
Indeed, I can see this turning into a "if you don't use Windows 10 you must be a pirate/have something to hide" sort of argument. Ten years ago, when filesharing was the awesome new thing, that would've been almost a compliment; but given how the population's view of piracy seems to have changed now, I don't think that will be the case anymore.
- zkhalique 11y ago
  What is the population's view of piracy now?
  - ionised 11y ago
    Misinformed due to the large scale FUD campaigns of copyright holders and lobbyists.

wcchandler 11y ago

Hey Chicken Little, how's the sky? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
When I read the #1 comment here by someone I can't depict other than George Orwell himself, I started shouting "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!"

zkhalique 11y ago

Next version of Windows will let you spoof the OS, because of all the backlash :P

EGreg 11y ago

The genie is out of the bottle. It's not just the NSA that wants your data - it's everybody! http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169

Kequc 11y ago

> The controversy began because of a line in Microsoft’s service agreement. This allows Microsoft to issue updates that will stop users “playing counterfeit games,” according to TorrentFreak. Game companies have been issuing updates that stop users "playing counterfeit games" ever since it was possible to do so. Microsoft is a game company, or one of the divisions are. It's interesting that they would stop there, rather than say "use of counterfeit software". That would be much broader. Microsoft has been doing that for some time so what is the justification for gamers all of a sudden freaking out.

scholia 11y ago
That bit of the service agreement came across from the Xbox One agreement, just as some other parts came across from Windows Phone. It's part of what happens when you have an OS that runs on different types of device, which is the aim for Windows 10.
JupiterMoon 11y ago
The justification is that they didn't know about it before.

amyjess 11y ago

I have to wonder how soon it will be before torrent clients just start faking their user agents and pretending to be from older versions of Windows.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Vendan 11y ago

Personally, I'll be getting a windows 10 box running soon enough. It's going to be headless and only have steam installed on it, and I'll be using it to play windows only games over steam in-home streaming on my linux desktop and laptop.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

I'm glad to see HN's mindless love of Nadella going out the window. I've been railing against his leadership for quite some time and have often been told how wonderful he is, apparantly because he's not Steve Ballmer. I can't imagine anyone defending his policies now. This scenario is far, far worse than anything during the Ballmer/Gates years. Nadella may be the CEO that watches the world shift to a non-MS OS in significant, company threatening, numbers. Its incredible how he just couldn't deliver "Windows 7 but better," instead of this privacy nightmare OS. And just to nitpick, we had to change our patching policy at work considering how badly QA has fallen under Nadella's watch. Pretty much every patch Tuesday is a problem for us. There's always a rotten patch that breaks something. I also am unimpressed by all the marketing surrounding the start menu coming back. Its barely a start menu, its just a panel to stick Metro-style widgets onto. The default widgets are a lot junk. The Win7 defaults of Documents, Computer, Control Panel, Printers, etc was near perfect from a productivity perspective.

roflmyeggo 11y ago

I wonder if Apple will go this direction in the future..

feld 11y ago
Not a chance. They're trying to position themselves as the security and privacy focused player in the industry.
- natch 11y ago
  Yes and it's not just positioning, it's a core philosophy.
  - feld 11y ago
    Which is why I'm on board. I hope others take note so the "right to security and privacy" isn't only within reach of those who can afford Apple devices.
  - nickysielicki 11y ago
    No, it's just positioning in the wake of Snowden leaks. If it was a core philosophy/value that the company collective felt then this image wouldn't exist: https://imgur.com/iHEtqaE.jpg https://imgur.com/iHEtqaE.jpg

malkia 11y ago

Happily using OSX, Linux, and Chrome (with crouton). I only need Windows now if I want to play a game, but the consoles at home, and steam under crouton/linux/osx solves that for some of the games I play. Nothing else really!

macns 11y ago

Great news for Linux. Reading almost every comment (out of 270 atm), I see only good in this, windows will surely lose a small percentage of it's user base, and (hopefully) a lot more in the long run.