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So you lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by US and UK, and during that time tens of thousands of your countryman died due to the government. So ob

by x0054 11y ago

So you lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by US and UK, and during that time tens of thousands of your countryman died due to the government. So obviously the Soviet system, which under the rule of Stalin killed millions of people (as in close to 50 million) during that same time is much better. Yes a job for everyone, even if that job is digging up ice dirt in the Siberian Gulag until you die from exhaustion. Come on, have some perspective, both systems are totalitarian regimes with horrible outcomes for the populations. In your case they were killing, torturing, and exterminating the left leaning intelligentsia. In the Soviet Union they did exactly the same thing to all the right leaning intelligentsia, actually all intelligentsia, because smart and educated people might see through all the bull shit the party was shoveling down people's throats. At the end of the day, in both cases a ton of people died horrible deaths simply because of what they believed in. How is one system better then the other? Well, other then in absolute terms, because at least in your case they didn't manage to killing quite so many people, but the outcome is the same. I am amazed that someone who lived through one totalitarian regime would be so in favor of another! Any system that subverts the rights of an individual under some bullshit pretense that it's for the "good of the nation" is absolutely wrong!

coldtea 11y ago
>So you lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by US and UK, and during that time tens of thousands of your countryman died due to the government. So obviously the Soviet system, which under the rule of Stalin killed millions of people (as in close to 50 million) during that same time is much better. As an aside, the oft quoted “50 million” number is BS. It counts famines, deaths in the war, etc. That said, the regime did execute a million or so directly. OTOH, it was a period of revolution and turmoil (even if it was skewed by the rise of bureacrats, etc). Death toll should be compared to things like the Civil War, not to peacetime statistics. That said, I never mentioned USSR, and the “soviet system” (or rather “socialism” is not a single thing, nor where the conditions the same in every place. Poland was different, Czechoslovakia was different, East Germany was different etc. >Yes a job for everyone, even if that job is digging up ice dirt in the Siberian Gulag until you die from exhaustion. Are you really familiar with the history of those states, or just repeat what you’ve read or seen in movies about very specific periods and very specific countries? Because that reflects a tiny percentage of the Eastern Europe population, and for a specific period of time. If we’re allowed to cherry pick periods, we can say “yeah, land of the free, unless your job is picking cotton under Jim Crow laws”, etc. >In the Soviet Union they did exactly the same thing to all the right leaning intelligentsia Actually they did it more to the left leaning intelligentsia there too. Because the problem with USSR wasn’t that it was “too left” and thus despotic, but that it wasn’t left enough (e.g. the revolution turned right into a self-preserving regime). Those who were in the right (mostly wealthy families etc) had mostly immigrated to the west early on. It was the "more leftists" that got the shaft from Stalin and co (of course usually undersevedly labeled as "right"). >At the end of the day, in both cases a ton of people died horrible deaths simply because of what they believed in. How is one system better then the other? Well, with that metric no system is good. Capitalistic colonial powers, for example, have enslaved 2/3 of the world, hundreds of countries and billions of people, and have caused more deaths than Hitler and Stalin combined (including the genocide of native americans). >Any system that subverts the rights of an individual under some bullshit pretense that it’s for the “good of the nation” is absolutely wrong! Well, and what about individuals in other countries, bombed, killed, having dictatorships imposed upon them by the same government? Just a case (there are countless others, in Latin America and elsewhere): http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role-1953-iranian-coup http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role... Or are only citizens “individuals” and foreign people don’t matter? Even so there are a million black people in jail in the US, aren’t they individuals or don’t they have rights? Or its that they are disproportionally criminal to the white population (which again has a disproportionate incarceration rate compared to the rest of the world). I won’t even mention the death penalty, which the civilised Europe has left behind. Maybe we should chalk that system as “absolutely wrong” too?
- x0054 11y ago
  > As an aside, the oft quoted “50 million” number is BS. It counts famines, deaths in the war, etc. The number I quoted is adjusted for the war related deaths. As for the famines engineered and caused by the Soviet Government, please do not minimize those deaths by saying they do not matter. Members of my grandfathers family died during that time because of the famines and because of how the Soviet government was literally stealing the food from Ukraine. > Poland was different, Czechoslovakia was different, East Germany was different etc. I did not live in Communist East Germany, Poland, or Czechoslovakia, but I am sure many people on this board have. And I am sure that most of them have stories to tell about how terrible those governments were. You haven't lived though any of those regimes either, so please do not pretend like you know best. > Are you really familiar with the history of those states, or just repeat what you’ve read or seen in movies about very specific periods and very specific countries? I was borne in Ukraine in 1984. I lived through the tail end of it, but my Mom and Dad, as well as my grand parents, lived through the thick of it. Not every one was send to Siberia, but many people were. My grandfather was a Ukrainian military doctor, so he was part of the "party," but he was a very conscientious man, and his hart would bleed for the poor conscripted soldiers he was treating. The Soviet government would literally use them as slave labor. When Chernobyl meltdown happen, my grandfather was sent to triage the injured. He was stationed miles away from the reactor, treating the injured soldiers coming back from the power plant. They were dying from radiation poisoning, and the Soviet government would just send new once in there, to die. You see, in the communist country, a human life is worth nothing. If it's easier to send a 1,000 soldiers to die, they will do that, no questions asked. I know, soldiers are sent to die all the time, but these poor guys didn't have a chance, not a chance. I realize that US did the same in Vietnam, and it's wrong. But 2 wrongs don't make a right. > Or are only citizens “individuals” and foreign people don’t matter? Even so there are a million black people in jail in the US, aren’t they individuals or don’t they have rights? Again, you can't argue that because US has it's problems, and is doing a lot of really wrong things, now and in the past, that somehow this makes all the horrible things that the Soviet government did just pitchy. I lived through the tail end of communism, my parents lived through a lot of it. We moved to US as soon as we could. And with all it's problems, I would take US over USSR any day of the week. I understand that you lived through a dictatorship, that Greece is right now in a complete financial ruin, in large part due to the idiotic way the EU is setup, and that you probably want to blame EU and US for all of it. But don't look to Russia and the olds style USSR for answers, the answers they have are the wrong answers. My fear is that if Greece does not recover from it's problems soon, they will be tempted to do a deal with Russia and Putin. Your opinions are not unique in Greece, I believe. I really hope that doesn't happen. In any case, you are not going to see it my way, and I am not going to see it your way. So let's part here.

by x0054 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

>So you lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by US and UK, and during that time tens of thousands of your countryman died due to the government. So obviously the Soviet system, which under the rule of Stalin killed millions of people (as in close to 50 million) during that same time is much better. As an aside, the oft quoted “50 million” number is BS. It counts famines, deaths in the war, etc. That said, the regime did execute a million or so directly. OTOH, it was a period of revolution and turmoil (even if it was skewed by the rise of bureacrats, etc). Death toll should be compared to things like the Civil War, not to peacetime statistics. That said, I never mentioned USSR, and the “soviet system” (or rather “socialism” is not a single thing, nor where the conditions the same in every place. Poland was different, Czechoslovakia was different, East Germany was different etc. >Yes a job for everyone, even if that job is digging up ice dirt in the Siberian Gulag until you die from exhaustion. Are you really familiar with the history of those states, or just repeat what you’ve read or seen in movies about very specific periods and very specific countries? Because that reflects a tiny percentage of the Eastern Europe population, and for a specific period of time. If we’re allowed to cherry pick periods, we can say “yeah, land of the free, unless your job is picking cotton under Jim Crow laws”, etc. >In the Soviet Union they did exactly the same thing to all the right leaning intelligentsia Actually they did it more to the left leaning intelligentsia there too. Because the problem with USSR wasn’t that it was “too left” and thus despotic, but that it wasn’t left enough (e.g. the revolution turned right into a self-preserving regime). Those who were in the right (mostly wealthy families etc) had mostly immigrated to the west early on. It was the "more leftists" that got the shaft from Stalin and co (of course usually undersevedly labeled as "right"). >At the end of the day, in both cases a ton of people died horrible deaths simply because of what they believed in. How is one system better then the other? Well, with that metric no system is good. Capitalistic colonial powers, for example, have enslaved 2/3 of the world, hundreds of countries and billions of people, and have caused more deaths than Hitler and Stalin combined (including the genocide of native americans). >Any system that subverts the rights of an individual under some bullshit pretense that it’s for the “good of the nation” is absolutely wrong! Well, and what about individuals in other countries, bombed, killed, having dictatorships imposed upon them by the same government? Just a case (there are countless others, in Latin America and elsewhere): http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role-1953-iranian-coup http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role... Or are only citizens “individuals” and foreign people don’t matter? Even so there are a million black people in jail in the US, aren’t they individuals or don’t they have rights? Or its that they are disproportionally criminal to the white population (which again has a disproportionate incarceration rate compared to the rest of the world). I won’t even mention the death penalty, which the civilised Europe has left behind. Maybe we should chalk that system as “absolutely wrong” too?

x0054 11y ago
> As an aside, the oft quoted “50 million” number is BS. It counts famines, deaths in the war, etc. The number I quoted is adjusted for the war related deaths. As for the famines engineered and caused by the Soviet Government, please do not minimize those deaths by saying they do not matter. Members of my grandfathers family died during that time because of the famines and because of how the Soviet government was literally stealing the food from Ukraine. > Poland was different, Czechoslovakia was different, East Germany was different etc. I did not live in Communist East Germany, Poland, or Czechoslovakia, but I am sure many people on this board have. And I am sure that most of them have stories to tell about how terrible those governments were. You haven't lived though any of those regimes either, so please do not pretend like you know best. > Are you really familiar with the history of those states, or just repeat what you’ve read or seen in movies about very specific periods and very specific countries? I was borne in Ukraine in 1984. I lived through the tail end of it, but my Mom and Dad, as well as my grand parents, lived through the thick of it. Not every one was send to Siberia, but many people were. My grandfather was a Ukrainian military doctor, so he was part of the "party," but he was a very conscientious man, and his hart would bleed for the poor conscripted soldiers he was treating. The Soviet government would literally use them as slave labor. When Chernobyl meltdown happen, my grandfather was sent to triage the injured. He was stationed miles away from the reactor, treating the injured soldiers coming back from the power plant. They were dying from radiation poisoning, and the Soviet government would just send new once in there, to die. You see, in the communist country, a human life is worth nothing. If it's easier to send a 1,000 soldiers to die, they will do that, no questions asked. I know, soldiers are sent to die all the time, but these poor guys didn't have a chance, not a chance. I realize that US did the same in Vietnam, and it's wrong. But 2 wrongs don't make a right. > Or are only citizens “individuals” and foreign people don’t matter? Even so there are a million black people in jail in the US, aren’t they individuals or don’t they have rights? Again, you can't argue that because US has it's problems, and is doing a lot of really wrong things, now and in the past, that somehow this makes all the horrible things that the Soviet government did just pitchy. I lived through the tail end of communism, my parents lived through a lot of it. We moved to US as soon as we could. And with all it's problems, I would take US over USSR any day of the week. I understand that you lived through a dictatorship, that Greece is right now in a complete financial ruin, in large part due to the idiotic way the EU is setup, and that you probably want to blame EU and US for all of it. But don't look to Russia and the olds style USSR for answers, the answers they have are the wrong answers. My fear is that if Greece does not recover from it's problems soon, they will be tempted to do a deal with Russia and Putin. Your opinions are not unique in Greece, I believe. I really hope that doesn't happen. In any case, you are not going to see it my way, and I am not going to see it your way. So let's part here.