7 ms·

I love the commenters describing it as being like a scene from Bonfire of the Vanities or serving Egyptian pharaohs. Speaking from experience, there are plenty

I love the commenters describing it as being like a scene from Bonfire of the Vanities or serving Egyptian pharaohs. Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. And corporate restaurants/stores mimic the same patterns as shown here, you just get paid less and treated worse.

wtbob 11y ago
> Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. Yup. One of my brothers was a waiter for many years in a town where it was easy to tell the lower classes from the upper; it wasn't just common for him to receive no or little tip when he waited on members of the lower classes, it was the rule. In years, I don't believe he could count on one hand the number of times he received more than a dollar (on tabs of tens or hundreds) or a piece of mucus smeared on the receipt (yes, you read that right). People are people, and many people are jerks. Money or lack of money just gives them different outlets to be jerks.
- wpietri 11y ago
  For me, there are two big differences. One, I'm more willing to forgive those with less privilege for errors of ignorance or misplaced reactions to trauma. Part of what privilege gets you is space to learn and to work our your issues. Two, poor people can't afford to buy much in the way of service, so their ability to mistreat other poor people is limited. The richer the person, though, the more personal service they can consume, and the more power they have over those workers.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    No. Just no. Poor or rich, if you go out then human decency is a requirement. If you go out, have the cash for the tip. Justifying poor behavior because someone is poor or rich relieves them of personal responsibility. My family was poor for a while, and I was always taught to respect people[1]. 1) unless they became a danger or acted like fools, then protect everyone else from them
    - hueving 11y ago
      Tipping is poor behavior. It's a disgusting practice in the US that really kills the experience.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      If I were justifying bad behavior, that would be a reasonable concern. Good thing I'm not. Yes, one should always tip. But my brother, who was a waiter for many years, was very tolerant of poor people from subcultures where tipping was uncommon or mysterious. Accepting that not everybody can yet play at your level isn't justifying bad behavior.
- milspec 11y ago
  Japan does this right: nobody tips. Customers pay the restaurant, and the restaurant pays the waiters. Tipping is one small step away from paying bribes. Don't do it. Don't encourage it. Don't accept it.
  - jnbiche 11y ago
    OK, but this is not Japan, and if you are skipping or skimping on tips here in the US, chances are you're screwing over a relatively poor person. US law allows restaurants to pay waiters and waitresses well below minimum wage, under the assumption that their tips will make up the difference. But I suspect I'll not convince you.
    - derefr 11y ago
      If everybody stopped tipping, wouldn't the law change? It's sort of the same as the problem of automation: the people at the bottom get screwed for a while while the system self-corrects.
      - bmelton 11y ago
        Probably not, because assholes like me make it a point to tip anyone who does me any personal service, even when abroad, and even when it isn't of a profession that typically demands it. I don't know why I do it, and I don't really attempt to justify it beyond "This guy did something nice for me and made me believe he enjoyed it, so that is worth at least something" mixed with not wanting to worry about whether or not a tip is expected. Apologies if I'm screwing up life for everybody else. I do at least pocket tips when I'm told that they aren't required/desired/expected/wanted, but I would much rather err on the side of over-tipping than under.
        hueving 11y ago
        Yes, your behavior is insulting in many cultures and is the reason we even have a law in the US that allows minimum wage exceptions for waiters. Over-tipping is worse than under-tipping on a macro scale.
icanhackit 11y ago
there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people We need a reverse Yelp that reviews humans rather than businesses. So many people fail to follow the Golden Rule in simple, everyday interactions for no discernible advantage to themselves at the cost of dignity, respect and efficiency. Some customers you don't want. And the customer is not always right. A sort of trade embargo in response to poor behavior would be interesting.
- quesera 11y ago
  > We need a reverse Yelp that reviews humans rather than businesses. I'd like that for drivers. My vehicle should be aware of the vehicles nearby and the likely drivers thereof, and present me with a HUD showing the poorly-reviewed in red.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    I have often imagined a dashcam that does license plate recognition and lets you know when shitty drivers are nearby. And of course, it would have voice response so you could give nearby cars compliments and public grumbles. Presumably you'd also want it to be geosensitive and real time, so that it could say, "Hey, there's a lunatic coming up behind you." Seems like it would be easy to put together a dash stand, some OpenCV magic, and a little glue logic to get a prototype together.
    - detaro 11y ago
      Wasn't there a "report my driving for everybody" or something along those lines on HN in the past few days?
    - msie 11y ago
      No no no! Hopefully you guys are joking. This is another case of geeks thinking technology and public shaming will cure us all of bad human behaviour. Cynically I think you'll get funding.
      - 11y ago
freshhawk 11y ago
I assumed the difference they are picking up on and the one that prompted the comparison is the culture of pretending that excellence at this job is meaningful. The large teams of people and the rules of the dance also make it very clear that you are not there to ensure a pleasant and efficient "dining experience". You are very much also there to act subservient and to be used as the object of a status display. The fact that you have a "bullshit job" is constantly thrown in your face. And there is certainly one difference I've noticed between the crap treatment of employees at an average place and top end. The entitled lower or middle class asshole will berate a server because they screwed something up that is simple, with the assumption that they could have done it correctly if they cared. Much more likely to get the reaction of "oh dear, you aren't even of good enough breeding to be an acceptable servant" at the high end places. And the people who act that way at an average restaurant are disliked by the majority of people, another table might say "Wow, what an ass. Sorry you have to deal with that." At somewhere like this you get treated that way by the people who your entire society has decided are worth listening to and who's opinions and judgement are highly valued.
- gyardley 11y ago
  This comment doesn't mesh at all with my experience at any high-end NYC restaurant, including the place where this guy worked. The staff isn't subservient; they've got some expertise, so they steer and make recommendations so you'd have a better experience than you'd have deciding independently. The patrons quite evidently aren't just 'the people who your entire society has decided are worth listening to', since they also include people who sit around reading Hacker News (as well as a good smattering of tourists and couples celebrating their anniversary.) And finally, if you're an ass to the staff, everyone around you still unambiguously knows and thinks you're an ass.

wtbob 11y ago

> Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. Yup. One of my brothers was a waiter for many years in a town where it was easy to tell the lower classes from the upper; it wasn't just common for him to receive no or little tip when he waited on members of the lower classes, it was the rule. In years, I don't believe he could count on one hand the number of times he received more than a dollar (on tabs of tens or hundreds) or a piece of mucus smeared on the receipt (yes, you read that right). People are people, and many people are jerks. Money or lack of money just gives them different outlets to be jerks.

wpietri 11y ago
For me, there are two big differences. One, I'm more willing to forgive those with less privilege for errors of ignorance or misplaced reactions to trauma. Part of what privilege gets you is space to learn and to work our your issues. Two, poor people can't afford to buy much in the way of service, so their ability to mistreat other poor people is limited. The richer the person, though, the more personal service they can consume, and the more power they have over those workers.
- protomyth 11y ago
  No. Just no. Poor or rich, if you go out then human decency is a requirement. If you go out, have the cash for the tip. Justifying poor behavior because someone is poor or rich relieves them of personal responsibility. My family was poor for a while, and I was always taught to respect people[1]. 1) unless they became a danger or acted like fools, then protect everyone else from them
  - hueving 11y ago
    Tipping is poor behavior. It's a disgusting practice in the US that really kills the experience.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    If I were justifying bad behavior, that would be a reasonable concern. Good thing I'm not. Yes, one should always tip. But my brother, who was a waiter for many years, was very tolerant of poor people from subcultures where tipping was uncommon or mysterious. Accepting that not everybody can yet play at your level isn't justifying bad behavior.
milspec 11y ago
Japan does this right: nobody tips. Customers pay the restaurant, and the restaurant pays the waiters. Tipping is one small step away from paying bribes. Don't do it. Don't encourage it. Don't accept it.
- jnbiche 11y ago
  OK, but this is not Japan, and if you are skipping or skimping on tips here in the US, chances are you're screwing over a relatively poor person. US law allows restaurants to pay waiters and waitresses well below minimum wage, under the assumption that their tips will make up the difference. But I suspect I'll not convince you.
  - derefr 11y ago
    If everybody stopped tipping, wouldn't the law change? It's sort of the same as the problem of automation: the people at the bottom get screwed for a while while the system self-corrects.
    - bmelton 11y ago
      Probably not, because assholes like me make it a point to tip anyone who does me any personal service, even when abroad, and even when it isn't of a profession that typically demands it. I don't know why I do it, and I don't really attempt to justify it beyond "This guy did something nice for me and made me believe he enjoyed it, so that is worth at least something" mixed with not wanting to worry about whether or not a tip is expected. Apologies if I'm screwing up life for everybody else. I do at least pocket tips when I'm told that they aren't required/desired/expected/wanted, but I would much rather err on the side of over-tipping than under.
      - hueving 11y ago
        Yes, your behavior is insulting in many cultures and is the reason we even have a law in the US that allows minimum wage exceptions for waiters. Over-tipping is worse than under-tipping on a macro scale.

icanhackit 11y ago

there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people We need a reverse Yelp that reviews humans rather than businesses. So many people fail to follow the Golden Rule in simple, everyday interactions for no discernible advantage to themselves at the cost of dignity, respect and efficiency. Some customers you don't want. And the customer is not always right. A sort of trade embargo in response to poor behavior would be interesting.

quesera 11y ago
> We need a reverse Yelp that reviews humans rather than businesses. I'd like that for drivers. My vehicle should be aware of the vehicles nearby and the likely drivers thereof, and present me with a HUD showing the poorly-reviewed in red.
- wpietri 11y ago
  I have often imagined a dashcam that does license plate recognition and lets you know when shitty drivers are nearby. And of course, it would have voice response so you could give nearby cars compliments and public grumbles. Presumably you'd also want it to be geosensitive and real time, so that it could say, "Hey, there's a lunatic coming up behind you." Seems like it would be easy to put together a dash stand, some OpenCV magic, and a little glue logic to get a prototype together.
  - detaro 11y ago
    Wasn't there a "report my driving for everybody" or something along those lines on HN in the past few days?
  - msie 11y ago
    No no no! Hopefully you guys are joking. This is another case of geeks thinking technology and public shaming will cure us all of bad human behaviour. Cynically I think you'll get funding.
    - 11y ago

freshhawk 11y ago

I assumed the difference they are picking up on and the one that prompted the comparison is the culture of pretending that excellence at this job is meaningful. The large teams of people and the rules of the dance also make it very clear that you are not there to ensure a pleasant and efficient "dining experience". You are very much also there to act subservient and to be used as the object of a status display. The fact that you have a "bullshit job" is constantly thrown in your face. And there is certainly one difference I've noticed between the crap treatment of employees at an average place and top end. The entitled lower or middle class asshole will berate a server because they screwed something up that is simple, with the assumption that they could have done it correctly if they cared. Much more likely to get the reaction of "oh dear, you aren't even of good enough breeding to be an acceptable servant" at the high end places. And the people who act that way at an average restaurant are disliked by the majority of people, another table might say "Wow, what an ass. Sorry you have to deal with that." At somewhere like this you get treated that way by the people who your entire society has decided are worth listening to and who's opinions and judgement are highly valued.

gyardley 11y ago
This comment doesn't mesh at all with my experience at any high-end NYC restaurant, including the place where this guy worked. The staff isn't subservient; they've got some expertise, so they steer and make recommendations so you'd have a better experience than you'd have deciding independently. The patrons quite evidently aren't just 'the people who your entire society has decided are worth listening to', since they also include people who sit around reading Hacker News (as well as a good smattering of tourists and couples celebrating their anniversary.) And finally, if you're an ass to the staff, everyone around you still unambiguously knows and thinks you're an ass.