7 ms·

Dinner and Deception – Serving meals to the super-rich left me feeling empty

82 points by JSnake 11y ago

xg 11y ago
Fun dialogue between Pete Wells (former Editor of NY Times Dining) and Helen Rosner (features editor for Eater): https://twitter.com/pete_wells/status/635499327918612481 https://twitter.com/pete_wells/status/635499327918612481
emmett 11y ago
It's interesting how much it really is a problem of alienation, not of the work itself. Stage magicians who obsessively practice the same motion over and over own their work, own their output, and feel empowered by the hard work and the success it brings. Waiters who do the same thing because a larger machine they do not identify with dictates it feel disconnected. The work itself is a distraction from the real problem, which is that the employee does not believe that what they are doing is important or valuable and that they don't feel ownership over their own actions.
- beloch 11y ago
  In high-school I worked in a restaurant. Not high-end, but decent enough that some customers expected a lot. Most customers were respectable human beings, but there were a few sad and pathetic misanthropes who acted as though paying money gave them absolute power over you. Those customers were enough to make the job feel a bit like prostitution. At a high end restaurant I'd imagine this effect is intensified, both by the amount of dollars changing hands and the discipline of the staff. It's a shame that it would never work in today's world, but the ancient Roman holiday of Saturnalia is something direly needed today. If the ultra-rich spent one day a year in service to wage-slaves who normally serve them, it might make the rest of the year feel a little less empty for people like the author of this article.
  - smtucker 11y ago
    You "imagine" the effect is intensified but you don't actually have any evidence to support it. I've also worked at a restaurant as a waiter. Despite it being a very low end buffet where the food was cheap and wages low I identify completely with the article (except nobody had a stroke while I was working). The only real difference was that the author and his co-workers were much better at their jobs than me and my own co-workers. Wealth is a big red herring in this story, but I guess its a story no one would be interested in without.
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
      >Wealth is a big red herring in this story, but I guess its a story no one would be interested in without. Well of course. Nobody's interested in stories about poor people: they're too common.
- learc83 11y ago
  I think that's the problem for many (if not most) people who are satisfied with their job--a lack of autonomy and ownership. For example, take fry cook A, who works at Wendy's, and fry cook B, who works at an independent restaurant where the owner gives him a good deal of creative control. Fry cook B's job is to make the best damn hamburger he can, and he get's to use his brain a bit. Fry cook A's job is to make the exact same hamburger as every other cook at every other Wendy's in the country. Most humans just aren't very happy trying their best to act like a robot.
  - GFischer 11y ago
    That's actually the point Daniel Pink makes on his book Drive http://deliveringhappiness.com/the-motivation-trifecta-autonomy-mastery-and-purpose/ http://deliveringhappiness.com/the-motivation-trifecta-auton... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Surprising_Truth_About_What_Motivates_Us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Surprising_Truth_Ab... "Daniel Pink, in his book, Drive, lists three elements of the motivation formula: autonomy, mastery, and purpose. - "
unabridged 11y ago
The ending reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from Brazil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4KFNhxibec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4KFNhxibec
A_COMPUTER 11y ago
I love the commenters describing it as being like a scene from Bonfire of the Vanities or serving Egyptian pharaohs. Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. And corporate restaurants/stores mimic the same patterns as shown here, you just get paid less and treated worse.
- wtbob 11y ago
  > Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. Yup. One of my brothers was a waiter for many years in a town where it was easy to tell the lower classes from the upper; it wasn't just common for him to receive no or little tip when he waited on members of the lower classes, it was the rule. In years, I don't believe he could count on one hand the number of times he received more than a dollar (on tabs of tens or hundreds) or a piece of mucus smeared on the receipt (yes, you read that right). People are people, and many people are jerks. Money or lack of money just gives them different outlets to be jerks.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    For me, there are two big differences. One, I'm more willing to forgive those with less privilege for errors of ignorance or misplaced reactions to trauma. Part of what privilege gets you is space to learn and to work our your issues. Two, poor people can't afford to buy much in the way of service, so their ability to mistreat other poor people is limited. The richer the person, though, the more personal service they can consume, and the more power they have over those workers.
    - protomyth 11y ago
      No. Just no. Poor or rich, if you go out then human decency is a requirement. If you go out, have the cash for the tip. Justifying poor behavior because someone is poor or rich relieves them of personal responsibility. My family was poor for a while, and I was always taught to respect people[1]. 1) unless they became a danger or acted like fools, then protect everyone else from them
roymurdock 11y ago
From the comments section: This article is absurd in that this type of work is neither as good or as bad as anything remotely described here. Being a waiter, myself for 24 years including 3 star Michelin (NYC), was a practical, enjoyable professional job in which I dealt with the public. Guests were almost always friendly people looking to have an enjoyable time. This type of writing is bombastic and provocative but lacks any true substance. Every industry deals with the cult of personality. I'm sorry to say it but there's nothing to see here. It's just not that big a deal. - Chad Murdock I have to agree...there are a couple of anecdotes of "inflammatory 1% behavior" and the overall style of the writing was nice, it just seems like the author is making a big deal out of basically nothing so that the NYTimes can stoke the anti-1% flames and generate more views.
- lvs 11y ago
  It is common for two people working, even side-by-side, not to view their job the same way. I'm certain we've all experienced that. Your response to the piece, and that of the commenter you cite, is more indicative of your own mindset about the world rather than the motives of the author.
  - roymurdock 11y ago
    Yeah, it was my opinion. I'm glad my comment conveyed my mindset about the world. That means I was successful in expressing said opinion :) Now, I alone can't say whether or not my opinion is right - that's why these lovely forums exist so that we can bounce ideas/anecdotes/opinions off each other! --- For the people who are downvoting this comment: why don't you contribute your opinion so we can have a discussion? A Socratic dialectic? A good old knowledge swap? Spin me a yarn! This intense, insecure need to be statistically, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt RIGHT (whatever that means) all of the time is killing/derailing countless discussions around HN. The rules of the forum are simple: have an opinion, don't be a dick. Leave a comment so we can learn from each other.
bbanyc 11y ago
The article doesn't name the restaurant, but the author's LinkedIn profile says he worked at Eleven Madison Park. This makes some of the details seem more believable. Felix Salmon: "they’re IN THE CREDIT SUISSE building ferchrissakes of COURSE there were douchebankers at the bar" http://gothamist.com/2015/08/23/eat_the_rich.php http://gothamist.com/2015/08/23/eat_the_rich.php
wpietri 11y ago
For those who love the stories of people behind the scenes, it's worth digging around in the Wayback Machine for Bitter Waitress's archives. E.g.: http://web.archive.org/web/20080917050640/http://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/index.php?method=showhtmllist&list=classifiedscategory&rollid=13&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&clearoff=1 http://web.archive.org/web/20080917050640/http://www.bitterw... And my favorite San Francisco story in this vein is "Ice Balls": http://the-tusk.com/2015/01/09/ice-balls/ http://the-tusk.com/2015/01/09/ice-balls/
- brookside 11y ago
  I enjoyed "Ice Balls". Thank you.
  - roymurdock 11y ago
    Same, "Ice Balls" was a fantastic piece of writing. Thanks for sharing.
- infiniteseeker 11y ago
  Some solid misandry here...From the article, last 2 paragraphs: >"It turns out there are a lot of upsides to being a woman. You get to hang out with women. You >don’t have to hang out with men. You don’t have to condescend to people about things like ice. >You notice other people’s reactions to you. People consider you safe enough to tell you their >problems. You get to smile at kids you don’t know. You get to hang out with women. You get to >hang out with women. Your whole life. Between the old guys congratulating themselves for being >able to drop 700 dollars on an ounce of 40 year old scotch, or my mom getting goofy on ice wine >with her retired nurse friends, I know who’s throwing the better party. > > >The well-meaning among you might be tempted to explain to me, hey you could hang out with women >who went to women’s colleges and still get called he or they or ze or hir or you might want to >explain to me that there are so many good dudes who are transforming what it means to be a dude, >and I could join in and transform it with them. Nope. No thanks. I think estrogen is good deal. I >think this female thing is a good deal. Even with the rape and the gas-lighting and the poverty >and the shitty jobs and the sexual harassment and the doing all the housework and the watching >jokers kill the planet and the regular ice, this womanhood thing is where it’s at. Those ice >balls have melted. I’m good." What some people do not realise is that men wouldn't do what they do with accumulating status and wealth, if women didn't reward them with sex for it.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
logicallee 11y ago
It wasn't a hard routine to master. You showed up. You read the article. Then you clicked on the text box, and you write one of a few thoughts: "I love how this exposes the vacuousness of the fine dining experience". Or: "The story about the Chinese businessman confirms something I have long suspected, that paying more for a meal is no an evidence of a soul." With a little practice, you can almost pass it off as original. You act surprised. You act indignant. You act informed. Then you click add comment. That's it. Simple. Mechanical. Of course, beneath the mechanical gestures lurks an ugly truth. It was something you didn't talk about. You just did your job - occasionally, you would get some karma for it. That soon wore off. I wondered: is this what it feels like to be one of the liberated intelligentsia? Would Engels have strained his relationship with his mother so that he could defend my right to "take it easy"? Is this what we have fought for? To be sure, I was a glorious member of a liberated proletariat: nobody got "surplus value" from my comment. The karma was mine. But sometimes, for just a glimmer of a moment, in those seconds after I clicked "add comment" I was left facing the ugly truth, there in black and white. It was because there was no value there at all. - (I am satirizing this awful article)
everyone 11y ago
My main feeling reading about this is that in a well designed society there is no logical reason that such opulence should exist.
- gyardley 11y ago
  In a well-designed society my wife and I can't voluntarily decide to save up and have a really nice dinner for our anniversary? What kind of person is this designer?
  - everyone 11y ago
    Yeah, that occured to me. My thoughts arent terribly clear on this, but where i am is.. Stuff like, this restarant, bugatti veyrons, luxury yachts etc. shouldnt exist. Producing them is massivley wasteful of resources and they require huge inequality to be viable. Im sure theres a sustainable, fair, socially responsible way to celebrate your anniversary with a nice dinner, but not whats described in the article, that is insane overkill.
    - lhc- 11y ago
      A $215 meal at a restaurant is a far cry from a Bugatti. I'm a software dev in the Midwest and I've eaten at Alinea, which is comparable in price and quality. You don't have to be a banker or hedge funder manager to enjoy good food, and I'm not sure what is so socially irresponsible about running a nice restaurant.
- unchocked 11y ago
  You make an excellent argument for why no one should design societies. Inadvertently, I presume.
  - everyone 11y ago
    No I dont. Thats one throwaway sentence. Its not an excellent argument for or against anything.
  - 11y ago
WalterBright 11y ago
That article left me feeling empty.
mathattack 11y ago
The joys of LinkedIn. The author [0] was captain at Eleven Madison Park [1]. I've never been there, but back when I had an expense account job, the few similar spots I'd been to in NYC were mostly old fogies quietly eating dinner with their spouses. Occasionally you'll have folks on dates amusing themselves on their iPhones. [0] https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardframe https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardframe [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven_Madison_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven_Madison_Park
omonra 11y ago
It sounds to me that the author is simply not a good fit for the job. It would appear that someone who is a graduate student in literature doesn't think that they were put on this earth to serve food to others. Hence he's just projecting his dissatisfaction with poor career choice on the people he is supposed to serve.

82 points by JSnake 11y ago

xg 11y ago

Fun dialogue between Pete Wells (former Editor of NY Times Dining) and Helen Rosner (features editor for Eater): https://twitter.com/pete_wells/status/635499327918612481 https://twitter.com/pete_wells/status/635499327918612481

emmett 11y ago

It's interesting how much it really is a problem of alienation, not of the work itself. Stage magicians who obsessively practice the same motion over and over own their work, own their output, and feel empowered by the hard work and the success it brings. Waiters who do the same thing because a larger machine they do not identify with dictates it feel disconnected. The work itself is a distraction from the real problem, which is that the employee does not believe that what they are doing is important or valuable and that they don't feel ownership over their own actions.

beloch 11y ago
In high-school I worked in a restaurant. Not high-end, but decent enough that some customers expected a lot. Most customers were respectable human beings, but there were a few sad and pathetic misanthropes who acted as though paying money gave them absolute power over you. Those customers were enough to make the job feel a bit like prostitution. At a high end restaurant I'd imagine this effect is intensified, both by the amount of dollars changing hands and the discipline of the staff. It's a shame that it would never work in today's world, but the ancient Roman holiday of Saturnalia is something direly needed today. If the ultra-rich spent one day a year in service to wage-slaves who normally serve them, it might make the rest of the year feel a little less empty for people like the author of this article.
- smtucker 11y ago
  You "imagine" the effect is intensified but you don't actually have any evidence to support it. I've also worked at a restaurant as a waiter. Despite it being a very low end buffet where the food was cheap and wages low I identify completely with the article (except nobody had a stroke while I was working). The only real difference was that the author and his co-workers were much better at their jobs than me and my own co-workers. Wealth is a big red herring in this story, but I guess its a story no one would be interested in without.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    >Wealth is a big red herring in this story, but I guess its a story no one would be interested in without. Well of course. Nobody's interested in stories about poor people: they're too common.
learc83 11y ago
I think that's the problem for many (if not most) people who are satisfied with their job--a lack of autonomy and ownership. For example, take fry cook A, who works at Wendy's, and fry cook B, who works at an independent restaurant where the owner gives him a good deal of creative control. Fry cook B's job is to make the best damn hamburger he can, and he get's to use his brain a bit. Fry cook A's job is to make the exact same hamburger as every other cook at every other Wendy's in the country. Most humans just aren't very happy trying their best to act like a robot.
- GFischer 11y ago
  That's actually the point Daniel Pink makes on his book Drive http://deliveringhappiness.com/the-motivation-trifecta-autonomy-mastery-and-purpose/ http://deliveringhappiness.com/the-motivation-trifecta-auton... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Surprising_Truth_About_What_Motivates_Us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Surprising_Truth_Ab... "Daniel Pink, in his book, Drive, lists three elements of the motivation formula: autonomy, mastery, and purpose. - "

unabridged 11y ago

The ending reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from Brazil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4KFNhxibec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4KFNhxibec

A_COMPUTER 11y ago

I love the commenters describing it as being like a scene from Bonfire of the Vanities or serving Egyptian pharaohs. Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. And corporate restaurants/stores mimic the same patterns as shown here, you just get paid less and treated worse.

wtbob 11y ago
> Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse. Yup. One of my brothers was a waiter for many years in a town where it was easy to tell the lower classes from the upper; it wasn't just common for him to receive no or little tip when he waited on members of the lower classes, it was the rule. In years, I don't believe he could count on one hand the number of times he received more than a dollar (on tabs of tens or hundreds) or a piece of mucus smeared on the receipt (yes, you read that right). People are people, and many people are jerks. Money or lack of money just gives them different outlets to be jerks.
- wpietri 11y ago
  For me, there are two big differences. One, I'm more willing to forgive those with less privilege for errors of ignorance or misplaced reactions to trauma. Part of what privilege gets you is space to learn and to work our your issues. Two, poor people can't afford to buy much in the way of service, so their ability to mistreat other poor people is limited. The richer the person, though, the more personal service they can consume, and the more power they have over those workers.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    No. Just no. Poor or rich, if you go out then human decency is a requirement. If you go out, have the cash for the tip. Justifying poor behavior because someone is poor or rich relieves them of personal responsibility. My family was poor for a while, and I was always taught to respect people[1]. 1) unless they became a danger or acted like fools, then protect everyone else from them

roymurdock 11y ago

From the comments section: This article is absurd in that this type of work is neither as good or as bad as anything remotely described here. Being a waiter, myself for 24 years including 3 star Michelin (NYC), was a practical, enjoyable professional job in which I dealt with the public. Guests were almost always friendly people looking to have an enjoyable time. This type of writing is bombastic and provocative but lacks any true substance. Every industry deals with the cult of personality. I'm sorry to say it but there's nothing to see here. It's just not that big a deal. - Chad Murdock I have to agree...there are a couple of anecdotes of "inflammatory 1% behavior" and the overall style of the writing was nice, it just seems like the author is making a big deal out of basically nothing so that the NYTimes can stoke the anti-1% flames and generate more views.

lvs 11y ago
It is common for two people working, even side-by-side, not to view their job the same way. I'm certain we've all experienced that. Your response to the piece, and that of the commenter you cite, is more indicative of your own mindset about the world rather than the motives of the author.
- roymurdock 11y ago
  Yeah, it was my opinion. I'm glad my comment conveyed my mindset about the world. That means I was successful in expressing said opinion :) Now, I alone can't say whether or not my opinion is right - that's why these lovely forums exist so that we can bounce ideas/anecdotes/opinions off each other! --- For the people who are downvoting this comment: why don't you contribute your opinion so we can have a discussion? A Socratic dialectic? A good old knowledge swap? Spin me a yarn! This intense, insecure need to be statistically, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt RIGHT (whatever that means) all of the time is killing/derailing countless discussions around HN. The rules of the forum are simple: have an opinion, don't be a dick. Leave a comment so we can learn from each other.

bbanyc 11y ago

The article doesn't name the restaurant, but the author's LinkedIn profile says he worked at Eleven Madison Park. This makes some of the details seem more believable. Felix Salmon: "they’re IN THE CREDIT SUISSE building ferchrissakes of COURSE there were douchebankers at the bar" http://gothamist.com/2015/08/23/eat_the_rich.php http://gothamist.com/2015/08/23/eat_the_rich.php

wpietri 11y ago

For those who love the stories of people behind the scenes, it's worth digging around in the Wayback Machine for Bitter Waitress's archives. E.g.: http://web.archive.org/web/20080917050640/http://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/index.php?method=showhtmllist&list=classifiedscategory&rollid=13&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&clearoff=1 http://web.archive.org/web/20080917050640/http://www.bitterw... And my favorite San Francisco story in this vein is "Ice Balls": http://the-tusk.com/2015/01/09/ice-balls/ http://the-tusk.com/2015/01/09/ice-balls/

brookside 11y ago
I enjoyed "Ice Balls". Thank you.
- roymurdock 11y ago
  Same, "Ice Balls" was a fantastic piece of writing. Thanks for sharing.
infiniteseeker 11y ago
Some solid misandry here...From the article, last 2 paragraphs: >"It turns out there are a lot of upsides to being a woman. You get to hang out with women. You >don’t have to hang out with men. You don’t have to condescend to people about things like ice. >You notice other people’s reactions to you. People consider you safe enough to tell you their >problems. You get to smile at kids you don’t know. You get to hang out with women. You get to >hang out with women. Your whole life. Between the old guys congratulating themselves for being >able to drop 700 dollars on an ounce of 40 year old scotch, or my mom getting goofy on ice wine >with her retired nurse friends, I know who’s throwing the better party. > > >The well-meaning among you might be tempted to explain to me, hey you could hang out with women >who went to women’s colleges and still get called he or they or ze or hir or you might want to >explain to me that there are so many good dudes who are transforming what it means to be a dude, >and I could join in and transform it with them. Nope. No thanks. I think estrogen is good deal. I >think this female thing is a good deal. Even with the rape and the gas-lighting and the poverty >and the shitty jobs and the sexual harassment and the doing all the housework and the watching >jokers kill the planet and the regular ice, this womanhood thing is where it’s at. Those ice >balls have melted. I’m good." What some people do not realise is that men wouldn't do what they do with accumulating status and wealth, if women didn't reward them with sex for it.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

logicallee 11y ago

It wasn't a hard routine to master. You showed up. You read the article. Then you clicked on the text box, and you write one of a few thoughts: "I love how this exposes the vacuousness of the fine dining experience". Or: "The story about the Chinese businessman confirms something I have long suspected, that paying more for a meal is no an evidence of a soul." With a little practice, you can almost pass it off as original. You act surprised. You act indignant. You act informed. Then you click add comment. That's it. Simple. Mechanical. Of course, beneath the mechanical gestures lurks an ugly truth. It was something you didn't talk about. You just did your job - occasionally, you would get some karma for it. That soon wore off. I wondered: is this what it feels like to be one of the liberated intelligentsia? Would Engels have strained his relationship with his mother so that he could defend my right to "take it easy"? Is this what we have fought for? To be sure, I was a glorious member of a liberated proletariat: nobody got "surplus value" from my comment. The karma was mine. But sometimes, for just a glimmer of a moment, in those seconds after I clicked "add comment" I was left facing the ugly truth, there in black and white. It was because there was no value there at all. - (I am satirizing this awful article)

everyone 11y ago

My main feeling reading about this is that in a well designed society there is no logical reason that such opulence should exist.

gyardley 11y ago
In a well-designed society my wife and I can't voluntarily decide to save up and have a really nice dinner for our anniversary? What kind of person is this designer?
- everyone 11y ago
  Yeah, that occured to me. My thoughts arent terribly clear on this, but where i am is.. Stuff like, this restarant, bugatti veyrons, luxury yachts etc. shouldnt exist. Producing them is massivley wasteful of resources and they require huge inequality to be viable. Im sure theres a sustainable, fair, socially responsible way to celebrate your anniversary with a nice dinner, but not whats described in the article, that is insane overkill.
  - lhc- 11y ago
    A $215 meal at a restaurant is a far cry from a Bugatti. I'm a software dev in the Midwest and I've eaten at Alinea, which is comparable in price and quality. You don't have to be a banker or hedge funder manager to enjoy good food, and I'm not sure what is so socially irresponsible about running a nice restaurant.
unchocked 11y ago
You make an excellent argument for why no one should design societies. Inadvertently, I presume.
- everyone 11y ago
  No I dont. Thats one throwaway sentence. Its not an excellent argument for or against anything.
- 11y ago

WalterBright 11y ago

That article left me feeling empty.

mathattack 11y ago

The joys of LinkedIn. The author [0] was captain at Eleven Madison Park [1]. I've never been there, but back when I had an expense account job, the few similar spots I'd been to in NYC were mostly old fogies quietly eating dinner with their spouses. Occasionally you'll have folks on dates amusing themselves on their iPhones. [0] https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardframe https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardframe [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven_Madison_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven_Madison_Park

omonra 11y ago

It sounds to me that the author is simply not a good fit for the job. It would appear that someone who is a graduate student in literature doesn't think that they were put on this earth to serve food to others. Hence he's just projecting his dissatisfaction with poor career choice on the people he is supposed to serve.