4 ms·

I see a lot of comments on the Times regarding unions. We take a lot of things like weekends for granted, and many of these tech companies seem to treat them as

I see a lot of comments on the Times regarding unions. We take a lot of things like weekends for granted, and many of these tech companies seem to treat them as a flexible inconvenience. I wonder if a hundred years from now we will look on the taxes to our mental health today as similarly as we imagine the truly backbreaking labor of the 19th century.

nickff 11y ago
The level of stress, and the toll it takes on mental health that we experience today is very low compared to a time when productivity and income were 20x lower. Our lives have changed, and we are immensely richer than we were 100 or even 50 years ago. People have more mobility, options, and opportunity than ever before in human history. One can argue that certain policies or priorities have affected our lives for the better or worse, but we should not try to compare the relatively minor difficulties we face with those of our forebearers, who left us in a life of luxury.
- braythwayt 11y ago
  Everything you say is true in aggregate, but let’s not forget that the future is still unevenly distributed.
- xacaxulu 11y ago
  This 'feels' accurate, but I don't know how worthwhile it is to say 'well it was shittier back then so...'. People commit suicide, relationships are ruined and diseases appear due to the kind of stressors described in the Amazon exposés. They're worthy of being considered today, in context, not compared to British coal workers in the past or whatever.
- x5n1 11y ago
  > The level of stress, and the toll it takes on mental health that we experience today is very low compared to a time when productivity and income were 20x lower. How could you possibly know this. Stress is completely subjective, and so is its effect on mental health. Lots of animals in the wild have a much more supposedly stressful life but curl up and die in captivity where everything is provided for. I would say the experience that we have with work is similar subjectively regardless of modern convenience. Especially workers working in Amazon warehouses on their feet 10-11 hours a day and at times with no air conditioning.
pekk 11y ago
It's not just mental health. Working 55-hour weeks (a number many HN users would laugh at) poses a 33% increase in stroke risk and 13% increase of coronary heart disease over "standard" hours: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/19/researchers-link-longer-work-hours-and-stroke-risk/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/19/researchers-link-lo... We're not just giving up a little time to prove our commitment, we're giving our life. Because our employers will fire us if we don't work long hours, citing a lack of passion or commitment. Just try interviewing for most tech jobs saying up front that you don't want to go over 40 hours. The best part? We punish anyone who doesn't harm themselves in the same way, when we could all be working together to insist on better conditions.
parennoob 11y ago
Why wait a hundred years? If we have any 60+ year olds on HN that have worked in tech all their life (I can recall of at least one person like this chiming in on discussions in the past) -- then they can probably comment on what sort of toll this takes on your life in the longer term.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Crito 11y ago
I don't think a union would solve this. I'd sooner quit a shitty job than stay in it, and hope the union makes it better for me. Much faster turnaround when I take matters into my own hand. If this were the sort of industry where I couldn't be working again with higher pay within the week, then maybe I'd consider sticking around for organized action..
- Frondo 11y ago
  Of course it would. It'd solve it before you even got into the position, by mandating that you put in your 40 hours and then left to enjoy the weekend, see your family, etc. And before anyone says "but I want to be paid on merit not seniority hur hur," remember, it's your union. You want your union to fight for merit-based pay and not seniority-based pay? Fine, go for it. Unions are democratic, so you shouldn't have too much trouble persuading others to vote for your ideas, as long as they're good ones.
  - Crito 11y ago
    Why would I put up with waiting for collective action to work, if I can improve my lot in life by simply changing companies? I'm not going to stick around at the company just to help out my coworkers. I feel zero loyalty to them.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      In that case, on behalf of your coworkers, I encourage your plan of leaving. For the rest of us, though, quitting often doesn't help. Shitty workplaces are commonplace. Jointly pushing back (which doesn't require a union) can create a place that you don't want to leave, one where you can have more confidence that it will stay good even as executives come and go.

nickff 11y ago

The level of stress, and the toll it takes on mental health that we experience today is very low compared to a time when productivity and income were 20x lower. Our lives have changed, and we are immensely richer than we were 100 or even 50 years ago. People have more mobility, options, and opportunity than ever before in human history. One can argue that certain policies or priorities have affected our lives for the better or worse, but we should not try to compare the relatively minor difficulties we face with those of our forebearers, who left us in a life of luxury.

braythwayt 11y ago
Everything you say is true in aggregate, but let’s not forget that the future is still unevenly distributed.
xacaxulu 11y ago
This 'feels' accurate, but I don't know how worthwhile it is to say 'well it was shittier back then so...'. People commit suicide, relationships are ruined and diseases appear due to the kind of stressors described in the Amazon exposés. They're worthy of being considered today, in context, not compared to British coal workers in the past or whatever.
x5n1 11y ago
> The level of stress, and the toll it takes on mental health that we experience today is very low compared to a time when productivity and income were 20x lower. How could you possibly know this. Stress is completely subjective, and so is its effect on mental health. Lots of animals in the wild have a much more supposedly stressful life but curl up and die in captivity where everything is provided for. I would say the experience that we have with work is similar subjectively regardless of modern convenience. Especially workers working in Amazon warehouses on their feet 10-11 hours a day and at times with no air conditioning.

pekk 11y ago

It's not just mental health. Working 55-hour weeks (a number many HN users would laugh at) poses a 33% increase in stroke risk and 13% increase of coronary heart disease over "standard" hours: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/19/researchers-link-longer-work-hours-and-stroke-risk/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/19/researchers-link-lo... We're not just giving up a little time to prove our commitment, we're giving our life. Because our employers will fire us if we don't work long hours, citing a lack of passion or commitment. Just try interviewing for most tech jobs saying up front that you don't want to go over 40 hours. The best part? We punish anyone who doesn't harm themselves in the same way, when we could all be working together to insist on better conditions.

parennoob 11y ago

Why wait a hundred years? If we have any 60+ year olds on HN that have worked in tech all their life (I can recall of at least one person like this chiming in on discussions in the past) -- then they can probably comment on what sort of toll this takes on your life in the longer term.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Crito 11y ago

I don't think a union would solve this. I'd sooner quit a shitty job than stay in it, and hope the union makes it better for me. Much faster turnaround when I take matters into my own hand. If this were the sort of industry where I couldn't be working again with higher pay within the week, then maybe I'd consider sticking around for organized action..

Frondo 11y ago
Of course it would. It'd solve it before you even got into the position, by mandating that you put in your 40 hours and then left to enjoy the weekend, see your family, etc. And before anyone says "but I want to be paid on merit not seniority hur hur," remember, it's your union. You want your union to fight for merit-based pay and not seniority-based pay? Fine, go for it. Unions are democratic, so you shouldn't have too much trouble persuading others to vote for your ideas, as long as they're good ones.
- Crito 11y ago
  Why would I put up with waiting for collective action to work, if I can improve my lot in life by simply changing companies? I'm not going to stick around at the company just to help out my coworkers. I feel zero loyalty to them.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    In that case, on behalf of your coworkers, I encourage your plan of leaving. For the rest of us, though, quitting often doesn't help. Shitty workplaces are commonplace. Jointly pushing back (which doesn't require a union) can create a place that you don't want to leave, one where you can have more confidence that it will stay good even as executives come and go.