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Ask HN: Where would you move your family to?
My wife and I currently live in San Francisco, both working for tech companies. She's due with our first child at the end of the year. The prospect of raising a family in the Bay Area isn't really getting me excited, and I think that there might be better places out there that I'm not thinking of.
Our situation is as follows:
* We're both in our thirties and have good careers, but not at any single company. We're respected enough and have deep enough professional networks that we could quit our jobs and have new (probably better) ones by end-of-day.
* We're in roles that could allow for remote work. While having a good local economy is nice, I'm quickly realizing that I don't have to physically be in San Francisco any more.
* My wife hasn't decided if she will return to work after taking maternity leave. I haven't decided if I will return to work after taking paternity leave. We do well, but we're not rich, so one of us needs to work.
* Neither of us has any family in the Bay Area. We're willing to move for a better life. We both speak French and English, and my wife speaks Portuguese, too.
* We've owned our current condo in San Francisco for a bit now, so we could either sell it or rent it out and do very well. We don't feel like SF real estate is squeezing us out by any means. If anything, our San Francisco real estate will probably be a means for our escape.
* Ideally we're looking for someplace that has low crime, good schools, doesn't feel like a rat race, some natural geographic beauty (we like taking hikes and walks), a government that works and makes us feel like we're getting value for our tax dollars, decent transportation options outside of cars, low pollution, and good weather. The last one is qualitative so I'll just say that we're willing to trade San Francisco's perpetual cool mist feel for a place that's hotter and/or colder but actually has real seasons.
So, where should we move to and why?
- ColinWright 11y agoAnywhere in southern Sweden. Low crime, good schools, amazing scenery, a government that works, and great access to all of Europe.
- philipDS 11y agoAnd a horrible climate in winter. If you're used to California weather, I wouldn't move to Sweden. It's like -20 in winter (celcius), plus it gets dark around 4 if you're lucky. Move to Spain. Probably the best place on earth life/quality wise. Easy to find a tech job (in e.g. Barcelona). Pay is lower of course.
- ColinWright 11y agoI've lived and worked in both Spain and Sweden in both Winter and Summer, and hands down I prefer Sweden. I love both seasons in Sweden, and hate the Summer in Spain. Personal preferences, I guess.
- eshvk 11y agoApart from the weather, is there any other reason you would prefer Sweden over Spain?
- ColinWright 11y agoThere's every chance I have a better personal cultural fit with the Swedes, but that's very much a personal thing. In my experience English is more widely spoken in Sweden than in Spain, which also makes it easier for me. I think the economy in Sweden is stronger.
- zerr 11y agoWhich part of Spain did you live in? Was it Catalonia/Barcelona?
- ColinWright 11y agoMostly Valencia, with some time in Tarragona, Palma, and Cartagena. Mostly I was working there, but I knew I'd be there for some time, so I integrated as quickly as possible.
- sheraz 11y agoGonna chime in here on Sweden -- it is not as utopian as it might project itself to be. Like many other in countries across Europe there is growing anti-immigration sentiment, and that is certainly true in the South. Malmö has quite a few issues with a growing refugee population, violence, and anti-semitism. "A government that works" is relative. You can be waiting months on your personnummer (Social security number), which will make it much more difficult to get healthcare, banking, or many other services -- even an apartment. The system works, but it mainly only works for those who were born into it. Problem is that the Swedish migration board (Immigration) is basically setup only to handle refugees. They are not well-equipped to deal with highly trained professionals. Also, though most people speak English, your lack of Swedish will be a hinderance to making friends and "integrating." Furthermore, as neither of you are Swedish, there is no one to "on-board" you into a community. That will make this only harder and more isolating.
- tired_man 11y agorefugee population? Don't you mean colonists? That's what they are when they refuse to integrate.
- ChuckMcM 11y agoDo you want to stay in the US? Bay Area? The south bay is more "family friendly" than SF is, as are some of the cities in both Marin county and the East bay. There are micro climates and there are great variations between city cultures. That said, if you are intentional about how you want to raise your children, what do you intend? Self reliance? Well connected socially? Depth of understanding about the world? Self motivated? Something we thought about alot when we had our children was what kind of values we wanted our children to share, what sort of things they would experience to help cement those values in practice, and give them tools for evaluating their impact (positive and negative) on the world around them. Its a lot of work but in our case it worked out well. The thing about kids is that they don't know anything but what they have experienced so no matter where you go or how they are raised they will consider that normal. Which is a long way of saying they aren't going to come back later and say "Gee, these choices really ruined my life."
- scurvy 11y agoWe're looking to leave the state of California, not relocate within it. Staying in the US is not a requirement. We feel like we can be intentional about how we raise our kids regardless of where we are. Moving is as much about us, as it is about our future kids. That said, places with entrenched or legalized discrimination and human rights violations are off the table.
- secfirstmd 11y agoDublin, Ireland?
- somlor 11y agoMy fiance and I moved from the Bay Area to Asheville, North Carolina last year and could not be happier. The only checkmark missing is decent transportation outside of cars. * https://www.google.com/search?q=asheville+downtown&tbm=isch * https://www.google.com/search?q=asheville+autumn+leaves&tbm=isch
- partisan 11y agoIf you can work remotely and can stomach the process of relocating then you can really choose anywhere. On my list are grand cayman, Lisbon, Tokyo, Seattle. Being from NYC, I don't know if I can recommend a small town.
- imauld 11y agoI recently moved from NYC to Seattle. After years of saying I would never leave the city, I love it here. It is a lot smaller than NY but there is still plenty to do and the food here is pretty great. No pizza or bagels though :-(.
- kleer001 11y agoYou speak French? What are you doing living in the States? Go to France. Arguably one of the best countries in the world for social insurance and benefits.
- scurvy 11y agoIt's on our list. My wife and I both enjoyed reading "Bringing Up Bebe". Any personal experiences on relocating and living there would be appreciated.
- eshvk 11y agoI would recommend Colorado. Denver or Boulder. Both places are chill, have a tech industry. I would argue that they have better weather than SF. The geography is incredibly beautiful.
- devillius 11y agoI would second Denver or really anywhere in Colorado. My wife and I live in MN and we love it. The cold isn't so bad and there are plenty of opportunities. Look at Duluth in MN.
- inflagranti 11y agoI might be biased being Swiss, albeit from the German speaking part, but the French part of Switzerland seems like perfect fit for your requirements. You both speak French, your kids will get high quality education for free and eventually access to two of the world leading Universities (no getting in debt to get an education, but that will hold for the most of Europe, too). There's lots of natural beauty, especially Lausanne is a wonderful city and Geneva is consistently ranked amongst the top liveable cities. Compared to France, which was also mentioned here and is definitely also a great place to raise children, it has lower crime rate and way higher salaries.
- jeo1234 11y agoI lived in Switzerland (French part) for a little while. Beautiful country, so if you enjoy spending time outdoors it's a big plus. The only downsides of living there was the cost of living, and this may have just been my personal experience but I found it harder to make friends there then other places I've lived.
- inflagranti 11y agoThe friends part I admit I have heard many times and can completely understand. Cost of living however is offset by the high salaries. Take home pay is one of the highest in the world, definitely you will have hard time finding comparative salaries in Europe, except maybe Luxemburg, where they also speak French, but it's even smaller and hence less job opportunities than Switzerland.
- denniskubes 11y agoPlano, Texas. It is a great place to raise a family. Excellent schools. Diverse city. Affordable real estate. About 20 minutes north of Dallas. Low crime. Voted safest city in the U.S. twice. Has plenty of hiking and biking trails. Texas does get hot in the summer.
- tylerpachal 11y agoYou might like Vancouver. It is always ranked as one of the best cities to live in, and it definitely has the natural beauty you're looking for.
- RobotTeaHouse 11y agoVictoria BC. Beautiful, Low Crime, Easy Going, Close to Vancouver and Seattle, Smaller City. Canada! Awesome place to raise kids or retire.
- jeo1234 11y agoSalt Lake City. Yes it's kind of boring, but boring can be nice. Great school, breathtaking mountains, strong sense of community. A long running joke about the city is that it is impossible to get people to relocate there, and later it becomes impossible to get them to leave. Definitely not for everyone, but if not being able to buy liquor on Sunday does not upset you it may be worth a look.
- miguelrochefort 11y agoSince you both speak French, Montreal could be an option. You'll earn less, you won't have much for your tax dollars, and you'll need to get used to the weather. However, it's safer than San Francisco, housing is cheaper, and seasons are very real.
- scurvy 11y agoMontreal winters are brutal though. I've been in Montreal during spring after the thaws and people kinda go wild. I asked why and one person replied, "Have you been through a Montreal winter?"
- _-_-_-_- 11y agoe-stonia would like you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxwxPnbXf7I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxwxPnbXf7I
- gyardley 11y agoNothing's ever a perfect fit, but based on your preferences I'd look at Boulder, Colorado. I've got a friend who moved with his young children a couple years ago and seems to love it - should you want an introduction, email me.
- dpeck 11y agoAustin, SLC, Denver, Boulder, Research Triangle North Carolina all seem like good options. Realistically you can probably pick a nice suburb of almost any top 25 population city in the country and get what you're looking for.
- bbcbasic 11y agoI live in Sydney. Look the Switzerland suggestion sounds excellent, but I will give you the sales pitch for Sydney. The main things are the weather - hot summers and cool winters (cold enough for a break from the summer, but not too cold). Over a dozen awesome beaches within a short drive from the city. You could easily live near a beach if you wanted to. There is a big focus on outdoor activity, great facilities for kids - unbelievable number of parks, daycare, sport activities. With so much summer time - get a garden and you can get them out of the house for 8 months of the year. Education seems good. Healthcare is excellent. 20 days annual leave and 10 days sick leave is mandatory. So is superannuation (pension) so you are saving for the future. Most companies don't expect you to do any unpaid overtime either. There is a reasonably good tech scene here, and I have no doubt you would find a good job. There is a bit of a start up scene around Fishburners. It is also home to a few of the big ones like Atlassian, Freelance, Campaign Monitor. There is also a ThoughtWorks office, and plenty of banks and finance jobs. Lots of meetups and things like that as you would expect. People are friendly here, as a parent you would love it because other parents will talk to you and be friendly and your child will make friends easily. It is that kind of culture. I imagine the US is similar but I have not experienced it. The downsides - you won't earn the top $ you would get in SF, London or NY. You wont get to use French much. House prices are high compared to wages, but for an IT worker owning a house with some outdoor space within 1 hour of the city is not out of the question. You probably already have savings anyway which would make this easier.
- relaunched 11y agoMinneapolis is wonderful. Great public infrastructure (parks, trans, etc). Amazing public education (Minnetonka, Edina, Plymouth, Wayzata). Tons of jobs in tech / jobs in general (3.8%) http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laulrgma.htm http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laulrgma.htm. Food scene is incredible and housing is (relatively) affordable.
- scurvy 11y agoI'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions! Much appreciated; we've got some ideas for places we hadn't thought of before.