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Isn't this basically FasTrak? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTrak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTrak It seems to represent everything else in the state o

Isn't this basically FasTrak? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTrak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTrak It seems to represent everything else in the state of California: you get what you pay for. It creates a classist, elitist society.

will_work4tears 11y ago
Wow, are those transponders still that big or is that an older model? We have Good2Go here in the Seattle area, and the little RFID cards are about as big as a credit card (though a bit thinner I think).
- kafkaesque 11y ago
  I've lived in Los Angeles/the US for 4 years now. They just started implementing them on some freeways, like I-10 (maybe 2 years ago?). They eliminated the (free) carpool lane and put this in place. I know city workers who brag about getting their transponders subsidised and get to ride in the cool fast lane. EDIT: The FasTrak lanes/"ExpressLanes" are actually combined with the free carpool lanes. Sorry for the confusion. EDIT 2: This is how it works: https://www.metroexpresslanes.net/en/about/howit.shtml https://www.metroexpresslanes.net/en/about/howit.shtml The transponder and opening an accuont (both required) still costs money. Further info: http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/expresslanes/images/ExpressLanes_FAQ.pdf http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/expresslanes/images/...
  - ParadigmBlender 11y ago
    I have lived here for about same number of years. I just happened to finally sign up and try it. It was an interesting value proposition. Pay 5+ dollars but remove the stress of possibly being late. The $5 is high enough to make this not worth it as every day default but I am glad to have it as an option in a pinch. Seems to be working well.
- calbear81 11y ago
  They're pretty big, like the size of two credit cards side by side and 1/2" thick. It does make a beeping noise when it registers so that's probably why it's not just a card.
- bskap 11y ago
  The new switchable pass they're making for the 405 HOT lanes is bigger and thicker. Still smaller than the one in that article, but no longer just a sticker. http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/everything-you-ever-wa...
twblalock 11y ago
Who is made worse off by the FasTrak HOV lane arrangement? People who can't afford the HOV lanes will remain stuck in traffic like they always were, although there will be less traffic than there used to be, because the people who can afford to use the new HOV lanes are no longer in the normal lanes. Some people are made better off, and nobody is made worse off.
- hemdawgz 11y ago
  Almost everyone in the world is better off than they were 100 years ago. That does not make it easier for those at the bottom.
  - twblalock 11y ago
    It kinda does by definition, actually.
    - hemdawgz 11y ago
      I suppose this misunderstanding boils down to semantics. By definition they are objectively better off. However, past a baseline threshold for human survival it's argued that a person's subjective perception of well-being is relative to that of others around him. Objectively, we are many times better off than we were pre-industrialization in almost every way imaginable, but does that make us many times happier or more satisfied than people who are unaware of such a standard of living? The argument is that they would perceive their well-being as much worse if they were aware, even if nothing has objectively changed.
      - Pyxl101 11y ago
        Where does it end? Everyone's a king living in their own castle, and still everyone's unhappy because the rich have planets of their own? Where things are objectively seems like a fine way to compare.
        nitrogen 11y ago
thescriptkiddie 11y ago
The FastTrak toll system doesn't cover the LA Freeway or any other major thoroughfares in California. It does cover a handful of isolated toll roads and bridges, but mostly it just lets you drive in the carpool lane without having to actually carpool. This doesn't dissuade people from driving, it just lets people who can afford it get places slightly faster. A real congestion charge avoids creating this two-tiered system by leaving no reasonable alternative route. You either pay the toll, drive 30 minutes out of your way, or take mass transit. Hopefully the latter.
- colordrops 11y ago
  Maybe not central LA, but FastTrak does cover major freeways all over southern California.
  - hyperbovine 11y ago
    It's definitely on the 110 within sight of downtown.
    - aninteger 11y ago
      It's very disconnected though. The I-10 route ends at union station and there is no direct connection. Also it would be nice to extend it on I-105 west all the way to LAX. The current situation is pretty popular and the fares can be as high as $11 (or more?) to go into downtown so if the were to really improve the connections it would only make the routes more popular, and thus more expensive at peak times.
- sanderjd 11y ago
  That still (or more so?) has the classism problem. Less wealthy people are more likely to be more severely punished if they are unable to get to work on time, and also more likely to live far away from their jobs. Both of those problems are exacerbated by being forced to take public transport. Owning a car is often a major bonus when applying for certain kinds of jobs, because it is viewed as increasing the chances that you will it to work on time. I'm all for thinking about ideas to make transport work better, but this sort of stuff makes it quite hard to come up with good ones.
ColinWright 11y ago
Capitalism is entirely about you get what you can pay for. It seems entirely appropriate to the USA.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  Capitalism is about the means of production being privately owned. It's quite possible to have a socialist society in which you get what you can pay for.
  - ColinWright 11y ago
    > It's quite possible to have a socialist > society in which you get what you can pay for. Of course it is, but that's not relevant to the point being made. > Capitalism is about the means of > production being privately owned. ... with the subsequent implication that things need to be operated for profit. As a result people have to pay for their services, so people can only get what they can pay for, which is the point. Going back to the original comment[0]: > ... you get what you pay for. It creates > a classist, elitist society. My point is that this is unavoidable under capitalism. Capitalism => private ownership of production => operation for profit => charging for services => only get what you pay for => classist, elitist society (according to kafkaesque[1]) This may not be limited to capitalism, but it is an unavoidable consequence of it. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10100170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10100170 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=kafkaesque https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=kafkaesque

will_work4tears 11y ago

Wow, are those transponders still that big or is that an older model? We have Good2Go here in the Seattle area, and the little RFID cards are about as big as a credit card (though a bit thinner I think).

kafkaesque 11y ago
I've lived in Los Angeles/the US for 4 years now. They just started implementing them on some freeways, like I-10 (maybe 2 years ago?). They eliminated the (free) carpool lane and put this in place. I know city workers who brag about getting their transponders subsidised and get to ride in the cool fast lane. EDIT: The FasTrak lanes/"ExpressLanes" are actually combined with the free carpool lanes. Sorry for the confusion. EDIT 2: This is how it works: https://www.metroexpresslanes.net/en/about/howit.shtml https://www.metroexpresslanes.net/en/about/howit.shtml The transponder and opening an accuont (both required) still costs money. Further info: http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/expresslanes/images/ExpressLanes_FAQ.pdf http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/expresslanes/images/...
- ParadigmBlender 11y ago
  I have lived here for about same number of years. I just happened to finally sign up and try it. It was an interesting value proposition. Pay 5+ dollars but remove the stress of possibly being late. The $5 is high enough to make this not worth it as every day default but I am glad to have it as an option in a pinch. Seems to be working well.
calbear81 11y ago
They're pretty big, like the size of two credit cards side by side and 1/2" thick. It does make a beeping noise when it registers so that's probably why it's not just a card.
bskap 11y ago
The new switchable pass they're making for the 405 HOT lanes is bigger and thicker. Still smaller than the one in that article, but no longer just a sticker. http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/everything-you-ever-wa...

twblalock 11y ago

Who is made worse off by the FasTrak HOV lane arrangement? People who can't afford the HOV lanes will remain stuck in traffic like they always were, although there will be less traffic than there used to be, because the people who can afford to use the new HOV lanes are no longer in the normal lanes. Some people are made better off, and nobody is made worse off.

hemdawgz 11y ago
Almost everyone in the world is better off than they were 100 years ago. That does not make it easier for those at the bottom.
- twblalock 11y ago
  It kinda does by definition, actually.
  - hemdawgz 11y ago
    I suppose this misunderstanding boils down to semantics. By definition they are objectively better off. However, past a baseline threshold for human survival it's argued that a person's subjective perception of well-being is relative to that of others around him. Objectively, we are many times better off than we were pre-industrialization in almost every way imaginable, but does that make us many times happier or more satisfied than people who are unaware of such a standard of living? The argument is that they would perceive their well-being as much worse if they were aware, even if nothing has objectively changed.
    - Pyxl101 11y ago
      Where does it end? Everyone's a king living in their own castle, and still everyone's unhappy because the rich have planets of their own? Where things are objectively seems like a fine way to compare.
      - nitrogen 11y ago

thescriptkiddie 11y ago

The FastTrak toll system doesn't cover the LA Freeway or any other major thoroughfares in California. It does cover a handful of isolated toll roads and bridges, but mostly it just lets you drive in the carpool lane without having to actually carpool. This doesn't dissuade people from driving, it just lets people who can afford it get places slightly faster. A real congestion charge avoids creating this two-tiered system by leaving no reasonable alternative route. You either pay the toll, drive 30 minutes out of your way, or take mass transit. Hopefully the latter.

colordrops 11y ago
Maybe not central LA, but FastTrak does cover major freeways all over southern California.
- hyperbovine 11y ago
  It's definitely on the 110 within sight of downtown.
  - aninteger 11y ago
    It's very disconnected though. The I-10 route ends at union station and there is no direct connection. Also it would be nice to extend it on I-105 west all the way to LAX. The current situation is pretty popular and the fares can be as high as $11 (or more?) to go into downtown so if the were to really improve the connections it would only make the routes more popular, and thus more expensive at peak times.
sanderjd 11y ago
That still (or more so?) has the classism problem. Less wealthy people are more likely to be more severely punished if they are unable to get to work on time, and also more likely to live far away from their jobs. Both of those problems are exacerbated by being forced to take public transport. Owning a car is often a major bonus when applying for certain kinds of jobs, because it is viewed as increasing the chances that you will it to work on time. I'm all for thinking about ideas to make transport work better, but this sort of stuff makes it quite hard to come up with good ones.

ColinWright 11y ago

Capitalism is entirely about you get what you can pay for. It seems entirely appropriate to the USA.

EliRivers 11y ago
Capitalism is about the means of production being privately owned. It's quite possible to have a socialist society in which you get what you can pay for.
- ColinWright 11y ago
  > It's quite possible to have a socialist > society in which you get what you can pay for. Of course it is, but that's not relevant to the point being made. > Capitalism is about the means of > production being privately owned. ... with the subsequent implication that things need to be operated for profit. As a result people have to pay for their services, so people can only get what they can pay for, which is the point. Going back to the original comment[0]: > ... you get what you pay for. It creates > a classist, elitist society. My point is that this is unavoidable under capitalism. Capitalism => private ownership of production => operation for profit => charging for services => only get what you pay for => classist, elitist society (according to kafkaesque[1]) This may not be limited to capitalism, but it is an unavoidable consequence of it. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10100170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10100170 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=kafkaesque https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=kafkaesque