4 ms·

Umm, the methodology appears to be rather unsound. > For all countries except the U.S. all first and second generation immigrant scores are excluded. > For th

Umm, the methodology appears to be rather unsound. > For all countries except the U.S. all first and second generation immigrant scores are excluded. > For the U.S, Asians, Latin speakers, and all groups other than non-Hispanic whites are excluded. European immigrants are included. This is really an apples vs. oranges comparison. For starters, some countries (such as Australia and Canada) have immigration policies that favor high-skilled immigrants, therefore such an adjustment hurts them (relatively speaking); then the author uses a special rule for the US that just happens to exclude poor minorities.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
Given the data available, how would you slice it better? Do you believe the result would change significantly if a better slicing were done?
- rbehrends 11y ago
  I wouldn't. Sometimes you simply can't draw conclusions (one way or the other) from the available data. Looking at the article again, I'm also concerned that the author seems to have an agenda and somehow perceives this as a US vs. Europe issue; frankly, it is not. There are, as I noted, wealthy European countries (Sweden, Norway) that do worse than the US. Also, at least for math, you don't really need to look that hard for explanations. US high school math is a disaster area; it is no secret that there's too much focus on teaching rote procedures [1], which will hurt you on PISA (which is more about figuring out the solutions to problems) and that by the end of 12th grade, the average American student will lag 1-2 years behind many other developed countries. Note that this problem extends even to the first years of college. [1] Not really a secret, see (for example) "The Teaching GAP" by Stigler and Hiebert, which analyzed video recordings that were taken as part of the TIMSS 1998. [2] http://parentsacrossamerica.org/james-milgram-on-the-new-core-curriculum-standards-in-math/ http://parentsacrossamerica.org/james-milgram-on-the-new-cor...
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    I wouldn't. Sometimes you simply can't draw conclusions (one way or the other) from the available data. Then strangely, you do exactly that two paragraphs later: Also, at least for math, you don't really need to look that hard for explanations. US high school math is a disaster area; it is no secret that there's too much focus on teaching rote procedures [1], which will hurt you on PISA... So making a crude attempt to control for demographics is invalid, and you can't draw conclusions from the data. Yet if you make no attempt to control demographics, it's somehow valid? Huh? Also, your theory that teaching rote procedures causes poor performance is already refuted by Sanandaji's article. It works just fine for Asian Americans, who perform just as well as wealthy Asians in Asia. Doesn't that piece of data contradict your theory?
    - rbehrends 11y ago
      > Then strangely, you do exactly that two paragraphs later: No. I'm drawing conclusions from different things, such as curriculum content, plus the huge body of existing research on teaching math in the US [1]. My larger point is that it's pointless to treat statistics as a black box and try and make conjectures (or worse, massage the data to fit your conjectures), when there are known documented deficiencies. > Also, your theory that teaching rote procedures causes poor performance is already refuted by Sanandaji's article. It works just fine for Asian Americans, who perform just as well as wealthy Asians in Asia. Doesn't that piece of data contradict your theory? No. First, it merely shows that when you select the highest performing group, you'll get a higher than average performance. The thing is, the same happens elsewhere, too. For example, the best-performing cantons in Switzerland (a country that is as ethnically diverse as the US [2]) had an average PISA score in math of around 560 in 2009, when the average was 531. PISA scores are spread out over a pretty wide range. Poor teaching does not make you unable to perform at high levels, it merely handicaps you. Other factors can compensate for it, such as the known higher work ethic of Asian Americans and cultural valuation of intelligence and cognitive skills [3]. Second, he uses a composite score, while I'm specifically talking about math, where the US score is really bad (as opposed to, say, reading). [1] To get started, look at what @tokenadult has written on this, e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5054856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5054856 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825364 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et... [3] http://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416.full.pdf

yummyfajitas 11y ago

Given the data available, how would you slice it better? Do you believe the result would change significantly if a better slicing were done?

rbehrends 11y ago
I wouldn't. Sometimes you simply can't draw conclusions (one way or the other) from the available data. Looking at the article again, I'm also concerned that the author seems to have an agenda and somehow perceives this as a US vs. Europe issue; frankly, it is not. There are, as I noted, wealthy European countries (Sweden, Norway) that do worse than the US. Also, at least for math, you don't really need to look that hard for explanations. US high school math is a disaster area; it is no secret that there's too much focus on teaching rote procedures [1], which will hurt you on PISA (which is more about figuring out the solutions to problems) and that by the end of 12th grade, the average American student will lag 1-2 years behind many other developed countries. Note that this problem extends even to the first years of college. [1] Not really a secret, see (for example) "The Teaching GAP" by Stigler and Hiebert, which analyzed video recordings that were taken as part of the TIMSS 1998. [2] http://parentsacrossamerica.org/james-milgram-on-the-new-core-curriculum-standards-in-math/ http://parentsacrossamerica.org/james-milgram-on-the-new-cor...
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  I wouldn't. Sometimes you simply can't draw conclusions (one way or the other) from the available data. Then strangely, you do exactly that two paragraphs later: Also, at least for math, you don't really need to look that hard for explanations. US high school math is a disaster area; it is no secret that there's too much focus on teaching rote procedures [1], which will hurt you on PISA... So making a crude attempt to control for demographics is invalid, and you can't draw conclusions from the data. Yet if you make no attempt to control demographics, it's somehow valid? Huh? Also, your theory that teaching rote procedures causes poor performance is already refuted by Sanandaji's article. It works just fine for Asian Americans, who perform just as well as wealthy Asians in Asia. Doesn't that piece of data contradict your theory?
  - rbehrends 11y ago
    > Then strangely, you do exactly that two paragraphs later: No. I'm drawing conclusions from different things, such as curriculum content, plus the huge body of existing research on teaching math in the US [1]. My larger point is that it's pointless to treat statistics as a black box and try and make conjectures (or worse, massage the data to fit your conjectures), when there are known documented deficiencies. > Also, your theory that teaching rote procedures causes poor performance is already refuted by Sanandaji's article. It works just fine for Asian Americans, who perform just as well as wealthy Asians in Asia. Doesn't that piece of data contradict your theory? No. First, it merely shows that when you select the highest performing group, you'll get a higher than average performance. The thing is, the same happens elsewhere, too. For example, the best-performing cantons in Switzerland (a country that is as ethnically diverse as the US [2]) had an average PISA score in math of around 560 in 2009, when the average was 531. PISA scores are spread out over a pretty wide range. Poor teaching does not make you unable to perform at high levels, it merely handicaps you. Other factors can compensate for it, such as the known higher work ethic of Asian Americans and cultural valuation of intelligence and cognitive skills [3]. Second, he uses a composite score, while I'm specifically talking about math, where the US score is really bad (as opposed to, say, reading). [1] To get started, look at what @tokenadult has written on this, e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5054856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5054856 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825364 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et... [3] http://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416.full.pdf