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Xiaomi is a good example and I intentionally left it out so someone smart could mention it ;). The engineering is quality, and I can see it becoming popular out

Xiaomi is a good example and I intentionally left it out so someone smart could mention it ;). The engineering is quality, and I can see it becoming popular outside of China. Regarding manufacturing quality and the similar trajectory, you are correct. But in the 80s and onward it wasn't just electronics we were getting from Japan. Anime, jpop, ramen, sushi, all of these cultural products - which couldn't quite be emblematic of anywhere else - made Japan a soft power juggernaut. Can China do the same? I'm not sure. Part of being cool is the ability to say "fuck the man," whoever that is and in whatever way, but dissent is too tightly managed for such an entity to be both globally enjoyed and accepted by the state, lest others start asking questions about the way things are run.

crocal 11y ago
Plus, people also seem to forget that Japan started its industrialisation as soon as during the 19th century. It was a super power nation-state in Asia before the war, with numerous cultural ties with Europe and USA on a peer to peer level. China is a different story.
hga 11y ago
Ramen started getting big in the late? '70s in "flyover country", sushi became big in the early '80s, anime in the '90s. There was definitely an inflection point sometime in the '80s, "The Japan That Can Say No: Why Japan Will Be First Among Equals" was published in 1989 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No) ... hubris was followed by nemesis, the asset bubble got popped in 1991, and the aftermath was bungled.
meatysnapper 11y ago
Japan has always been fascinating to the West, from the moment Perry told them to open the hell up. Japan has such an interesting wacky culture, architecture, art, lifestyle. They've always had craftsmen the like of whom can compete with the Germanic countries; something which few countries can say. When it came time to industrialize, Japan was able to build very advanced stuff on their own- the Zero, for example. And they make fantastic movies! The Japanese language is also not super hard for the West to pronounce, and it is even possible to learn it. The writing system(s) are a bit confusing, but we can pronounce it. Contrast that with Chinese, and especially Chinese music. Yeah, no. The operative question: Is there any reason to learn Chinese apart from making money? Taiwan, on the other hand, is an interesting place. Really good food, and it's going to experience a major boom as a travel food destination in the near future.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  Spot on. Especially about Taiwan. It's not that "China" is culturally lacking, it's Mao's China, where the exact people capable of stimulating culture from the ground up - intellectuals - were killed off if not dead from starvation. But Japanese being easier to learn than Chinese? I'm in shock: I've always found Chinese to be simple and Japanese to be mind-bogglingly impenetrable, even if I like it more.
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    It is mind boggling that the Mao-created famine that killed 40 million was only ~50 years ago.
    - hga 11y ago
      I suppose if you're young enough. I was born in the middle of the Great Leap Forward, but very fortunately in the US, came of political age during the middle of the Cultural Revolution (which we're now learning, which should be to no one's surprise, slaughtered and maimed millions) ... and all this was brought into sharp relief when Nixon sundered the PRC from its alliance with the USSR and went to China in 1972. Only someone with his impeccable anti-Communist credentials could have pulled off that essential victory in the Cold War (with, of course, the aid of the USSR, which offered us co-dominion, to take out the PRC's nukes and rule the world together, at least for a while; we declined and took that offer to Mao and company, who by then were not surprised). So the politically aware of my generation and older know this sort of thing, and know the leadership of the PRC is today only somewhat less murderous.
  - hga 11y ago
    "Made in Taiwan" is now also a marker for higher quality than "Made in China", you'll sometimes see a line of equipment where the best is made on the island. Ah, and for culture, those wonderful crazy animators in Taiwan have made a very widespread impact, at least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Media_Animation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Media_Animation

crocal 11y ago

Plus, people also seem to forget that Japan started its industrialisation as soon as during the 19th century. It was a super power nation-state in Asia before the war, with numerous cultural ties with Europe and USA on a peer to peer level. China is a different story.

hga 11y ago

Ramen started getting big in the late? '70s in "flyover country", sushi became big in the early '80s, anime in the '90s. There was definitely an inflection point sometime in the '80s, "The Japan That Can Say No: Why Japan Will Be First Among Equals" was published in 1989 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No) ... hubris was followed by nemesis, the asset bubble got popped in 1991, and the aftermath was bungled.

meatysnapper 11y ago

Japan has always been fascinating to the West, from the moment Perry told them to open the hell up. Japan has such an interesting wacky culture, architecture, art, lifestyle. They've always had craftsmen the like of whom can compete with the Germanic countries; something which few countries can say. When it came time to industrialize, Japan was able to build very advanced stuff on their own- the Zero, for example. And they make fantastic movies! The Japanese language is also not super hard for the West to pronounce, and it is even possible to learn it. The writing system(s) are a bit confusing, but we can pronounce it. Contrast that with Chinese, and especially Chinese music. Yeah, no. The operative question: Is there any reason to learn Chinese apart from making money? Taiwan, on the other hand, is an interesting place. Really good food, and it's going to experience a major boom as a travel food destination in the near future.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
Spot on. Especially about Taiwan. It's not that "China" is culturally lacking, it's Mao's China, where the exact people capable of stimulating culture from the ground up - intellectuals - were killed off if not dead from starvation. But Japanese being easier to learn than Chinese? I'm in shock: I've always found Chinese to be simple and Japanese to be mind-bogglingly impenetrable, even if I like it more.
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  It is mind boggling that the Mao-created famine that killed 40 million was only ~50 years ago.
  - hga 11y ago
    I suppose if you're young enough. I was born in the middle of the Great Leap Forward, but very fortunately in the US, came of political age during the middle of the Cultural Revolution (which we're now learning, which should be to no one's surprise, slaughtered and maimed millions) ... and all this was brought into sharp relief when Nixon sundered the PRC from its alliance with the USSR and went to China in 1972. Only someone with his impeccable anti-Communist credentials could have pulled off that essential victory in the Cold War (with, of course, the aid of the USSR, which offered us co-dominion, to take out the PRC's nukes and rule the world together, at least for a while; we declined and took that offer to Mao and company, who by then were not surprised). So the politically aware of my generation and older know this sort of thing, and know the leadership of the PRC is today only somewhat less murderous.
- hga 11y ago
  "Made in Taiwan" is now also a marker for higher quality than "Made in China", you'll sometimes see a line of equipment where the best is made on the island. Ah, and for culture, those wonderful crazy animators in Taiwan have made a very widespread impact, at least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Media_Animation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Media_Animation