7 ms·

I'd love to learn more about that trapeze system; it looks absolutely terrifying, not least the climb out of the cockpit and up into the ship. Can't find much a

I'd love to learn more about that trapeze system; it looks absolutely terrifying, not least the climb out of the cockpit and up into the ship. Can't find much about it with a quick search.

kjs3 11y ago
I've seen films. Holy shit I wouldn't want to be the pilot on the receiving end of that. Launching is precarious and clumsy; recovery looks like pure nightmare fuel. Remember, zeppelins aren't fast, so those planes are dangerously close to stall speed even without dealing with things like turbulence and crosswind. NopeNopeNope.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Launching doesn't seem like a big deal, as long as you have a decent amount of altitude. If you launch slow, you'll just drop and pick up speed. Should be much like recovery from an aggressive stall. Recovery, on the other hand, no way. Not too bad in smooth air, I think. You'll be flying really slow, but if you accidentally stall then you'll drop away from the airship to safety and can try again. But turbulence is going to affect the two aircraft so very differently that it seems like there would be a huge risk of collision. Note that there won't be any (consistent) crosswinds, since they're both flying through the same air.
  - kjs3 11y ago
    Launching doesn't seem like a big deal In the film, there's obviously a lot of turbulence. Bouncing up into either the trapeze or the zeppelin is clearly a real danger. Or getting ripped off the trapeze prematurely. Further, those biplanes generate a lot of lift, even at low speed, and tend to rise on release, so the pilot has to be in control (stick forward) at all times and can't simply drop away.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      I wonder if it would have been better to launch at a slower speed, then.
- fancyketchup 11y ago
  I'm not so sure they were 'dangerously close' to stall speed. While I can't find specifications for the N2Y biplanes hosted by the Macon, keep in mind that the N2Y is a two-seat inter-war biplane trainer with a 115 hp engine--it was not a fighter or pursuit plane. Additionally, it would have been designed to use the short, unpaved runways characteristic of pre-WWII airfields. All these factors point to low stall speeds. So if we wanted to estimate the stall speed based on comparable aircraft, we'd be looking for a 100-ish hp, two-seat trainer. Aircraft of that description typically have a stall speed in the 35 to 45 knot range. The source of all truth (Wikipedia) lists the cruising speed of the Macon as 55 knots / 63 mph with a max speed of 75 knots / 86 mph (altitudes not given). The Macon's cruising speed would be right around the recommended approach speed for aircraft like these, and it could have certainly accelerated to higher speeds to perform heavier-than-air aircraft operations.
  - kjs3 11y ago
    You and your facts. :-)
gvb 11y ago
N2Y Bi-plane hooks onto the aircraft trapeze of USS Akron (ZRS-4) dirigible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIm5qt5JrQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIm5qt5JrQ Also (more of a fly-around video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK_Wu3Jiqv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK_Wu3Jiqv4 Back then, aircraft could fly as slowly as a dirigible, which made it possible. There still was very little margin for error.
- scrumper 11y ago
  Hmm, so probably the same order of difficulty as aerial refueling given the low speed differential. Doesn't look any less scary though.
tired_man 11y ago
The trapeze rotated to draw the aircraft inside the Macon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F9C-2_Sparrowhawk_fighter.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F9C-2_Sparrowhawk_fighter... See that C shaped bit on the left? As the arm is retracted, that C wold ride down to the fuselage to stabilize it as it rose up. Once the plane was inside, they'd close the hatches. Easey-peasey to climb out with a ladder hooked to the cockpit rim.
- scrumper 11y ago
  Yeah I thought that C-shaped piece was something to do with it; it appeared to fit around the back end of the fuselage somehow. The plane is pointing up, I imagine it's still powered up to keep tension on that hook. Really something. Did not see that this retracted. Thanks!
  - tired_man 11y ago
    Yeah, that was something. The USAF tried a 2-3 similar schemes. Let me recommend the wiki for a starting point (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite_aircraft) for more cool stuff. You're in for a treat :-) I grew up on adventure pulp fiction and Saturday serials at the local theater. I love that sort of stuff!
goodcanadian 11y ago
The trapeze retracts into the airship, bringing the plane with it.

I'd love to learn more about that trapeze system; it looks absolutely terrifying, not least the climb out of the cockpit and up into the ship. Can't find much about it with a quick search.

kjs3 11y ago

I've seen films. Holy shit I wouldn't want to be the pilot on the receiving end of that. Launching is precarious and clumsy; recovery looks like pure nightmare fuel. Remember, zeppelins aren't fast, so those planes are dangerously close to stall speed even without dealing with things like turbulence and crosswind. NopeNopeNope.

mikeash 11y ago
Launching doesn't seem like a big deal, as long as you have a decent amount of altitude. If you launch slow, you'll just drop and pick up speed. Should be much like recovery from an aggressive stall. Recovery, on the other hand, no way. Not too bad in smooth air, I think. You'll be flying really slow, but if you accidentally stall then you'll drop away from the airship to safety and can try again. But turbulence is going to affect the two aircraft so very differently that it seems like there would be a huge risk of collision. Note that there won't be any (consistent) crosswinds, since they're both flying through the same air.
- kjs3 11y ago
  Launching doesn't seem like a big deal In the film, there's obviously a lot of turbulence. Bouncing up into either the trapeze or the zeppelin is clearly a real danger. Or getting ripped off the trapeze prematurely. Further, those biplanes generate a lot of lift, even at low speed, and tend to rise on release, so the pilot has to be in control (stick forward) at all times and can't simply drop away.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    I wonder if it would have been better to launch at a slower speed, then.
fancyketchup 11y ago
I'm not so sure they were 'dangerously close' to stall speed. While I can't find specifications for the N2Y biplanes hosted by the Macon, keep in mind that the N2Y is a two-seat inter-war biplane trainer with a 115 hp engine--it was not a fighter or pursuit plane. Additionally, it would have been designed to use the short, unpaved runways characteristic of pre-WWII airfields. All these factors point to low stall speeds. So if we wanted to estimate the stall speed based on comparable aircraft, we'd be looking for a 100-ish hp, two-seat trainer. Aircraft of that description typically have a stall speed in the 35 to 45 knot range. The source of all truth (Wikipedia) lists the cruising speed of the Macon as 55 knots / 63 mph with a max speed of 75 knots / 86 mph (altitudes not given). The Macon's cruising speed would be right around the recommended approach speed for aircraft like these, and it could have certainly accelerated to higher speeds to perform heavier-than-air aircraft operations.
- kjs3 11y ago
  You and your facts. :-)

gvb 11y ago

N2Y Bi-plane hooks onto the aircraft trapeze of USS Akron (ZRS-4) dirigible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIm5qt5JrQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIm5qt5JrQ Also (more of a fly-around video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK_Wu3Jiqv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK_Wu3Jiqv4 Back then, aircraft could fly as slowly as a dirigible, which made it possible. There still was very little margin for error.

scrumper 11y ago
Hmm, so probably the same order of difficulty as aerial refueling given the low speed differential. Doesn't look any less scary though.

tired_man 11y ago

The trapeze rotated to draw the aircraft inside the Macon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F9C-2_Sparrowhawk_fighter.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F9C-2_Sparrowhawk_fighter... See that C shaped bit on the left? As the arm is retracted, that C wold ride down to the fuselage to stabilize it as it rose up. Once the plane was inside, they'd close the hatches. Easey-peasey to climb out with a ladder hooked to the cockpit rim.

scrumper 11y ago
Yeah I thought that C-shaped piece was something to do with it; it appeared to fit around the back end of the fuselage somehow. The plane is pointing up, I imagine it's still powered up to keep tension on that hook. Really something. Did not see that this retracted. Thanks!
- tired_man 11y ago
  Yeah, that was something. The USAF tried a 2-3 similar schemes. Let me recommend the wiki for a starting point (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite_aircraft) for more cool stuff. You're in for a treat :-) I grew up on adventure pulp fiction and Saturday serials at the local theater. I love that sort of stuff!

goodcanadian 11y ago

The trapeze retracts into the airship, bringing the plane with it.