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What was the best case scenario (in your opinion) for this message? My mission is to speak the truth, ONLY the truth. I don't mind ruffling feathers along the

What was the best case scenario (in your opinion) for this message? My mission is to speak the truth, ONLY the truth. I don't mind ruffling feathers along the way, especially in regards to JGC, who is actively taking steps to destroy the FOSS principles of the LuaJIT project. I'd sooner see myself banned than retract or apologize for a single character of anything I've said thus far, or plan to say soon.

dang 11y ago
I'm not sure I understand your question, but there are lots of ways to speak the truth, and on HN you're expected to do so civilly and substantively. Personal attacks are especially not allowed. Sometimes people justify their uncivil, unsubstantive comments by posing as warriors for the truth and so on, but this is silly, because the truth isn't served by such posturing at all, and rudeness makes a comment less persuasive.
- logicrime 11y ago
  Read that back and ask yourself how many commas you really needed.
jgrahamc 11y ago
All this is being driven by Mike Pall who created LuaJIT. If you really think that I, personally, am "actively taking steps to destroy the FOSS principles of the LuaJIT project" then get involved on the Lua mailing list and ensure that whatever principles you want are maintained. The biggest disconnect I have with you is that you are asserting that I am messing up the FOSS nature of LuaJIT but I don't see how moving it to Github (with Mike's help), getting people involved as widely as possible etc. is doing that. What, specifically, are you concerned about in what I/CloudFlare are doing?
- logicrime 11y ago
  Another thin lie to appease the foolish? Why hasn't Mike weighed in on this? I tweeted Mike on twitter and it was you and some other twat who were so quick to tell me how FOSS-friendly the project was, yet I've every suspicion that this project will end up in tears and LuaJIT will end up in a dark corner of CF's internals. I'm not asking you to be held responsible for CF business, that'd be unreasonable. I might be a rude halfwit, but I know where the boundary lies. Though I've mentioned it already multiple times, I'll reiterate a final time: Absolutely no concrete assurance (from CF officially) that the LuaJIT project will be developed openly. It has been moved to GitHub, distancing it from the long-appreciated mailing list and cementing it's position ion a platform that openly censors projects and actively enforces a code of conduct to further the narrative that code should take peoples' feelings into consideration. Github is widely used, and most of the alternatives suck, so it's an understandable sin. On top of all that, the murky posts on the actual list indicate no significant progress has been made on figuring out a new direction for the project, and little to no effort has been made to do more than announce to the community what's (allegedly) going on. Finally, the biggest disconnect between you and I is that if someone offered me money to take over a FOSS project and move to behind closed doors of a huge corporation, instead of agreeing and playing sock-puppet on mailing lists and twitter (who does that sound like?), I would out them to the community. I'm not asking for you to make changes, just voicing my dissent and my intent to take aggressive, direct action.
  - jgrahamc 11y ago
    I very much doubt that you and I are going to come to agreement on this. Mike's been involved on the mailing list. Perhaps you should address this directly with him. Absolutely no concrete assurance (from CF officially) that the LuaJIT project will be developed openly. The other person who tweeted you was the CEO.
    - logicrime 11y ago
      There will be no agreement. We will hear each other's names again soon, I suspect. Probably when I drop 0day for CF LuaJIT.
  - pygy_ 11y ago
    > Absolutely no concrete assurance (from CF officially) that the LuaJIT project will be developed openly. The project was never completely developed in the open, with the test suite and the interaction between sponsors and Mike being private. > On top of all that, the murky posts on the actual list indicate no significant progress has been made on figuring out a new direction for the project, and little to no effort has been made to do more than announce to the community what's (allegedly) going on. The progress is indeed slow, but it is not surprising given the short delay since the announcement and the complexity of the code. LuaJIT has currently a bus factor of one. Some people are familiar with some aspects of the code but there are no guaranties that they have the time to take over the project. From what I gather, ATM, Cloudflare doesn't have employees that could step up and replace Mike, which means it would be foolish of them to burn the bridges with the community. Edit, see also: https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/issues/45 https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/issues/45
    - jgrahamc 11y ago
      From what I gather, ATM, Cloudflare doesn't have employees that could step up and replace Mike, which means it would be foolish of them to burn the bridges with the community. This is true. There is not obvious replacement for Mike at CloudFlare or elsewhere. I've been hoping that discussion on the mailing list would lead to someone emerging or a consensus. Also, Mike has said he wants the transition to be 'one to two months' and I have not personally been involved with the LuaJIT community so stepping as lightly as possible while trying to do what Mike wanted (which was have CloudFlare take the load off his shoulders and help the transition).

dang 11y ago

I'm not sure I understand your question, but there are lots of ways to speak the truth, and on HN you're expected to do so civilly and substantively. Personal attacks are especially not allowed. Sometimes people justify their uncivil, unsubstantive comments by posing as warriors for the truth and so on, but this is silly, because the truth isn't served by such posturing at all, and rudeness makes a comment less persuasive.

logicrime 11y ago
Read that back and ask yourself how many commas you really needed.

jgrahamc 11y ago

All this is being driven by Mike Pall who created LuaJIT. If you really think that I, personally, am "actively taking steps to destroy the FOSS principles of the LuaJIT project" then get involved on the Lua mailing list and ensure that whatever principles you want are maintained. The biggest disconnect I have with you is that you are asserting that I am messing up the FOSS nature of LuaJIT but I don't see how moving it to Github (with Mike's help), getting people involved as widely as possible etc. is doing that. What, specifically, are you concerned about in what I/CloudFlare are doing?

logicrime 11y ago
Another thin lie to appease the foolish? Why hasn't Mike weighed in on this? I tweeted Mike on twitter and it was you and some other twat who were so quick to tell me how FOSS-friendly the project was, yet I've every suspicion that this project will end up in tears and LuaJIT will end up in a dark corner of CF's internals. I'm not asking you to be held responsible for CF business, that'd be unreasonable. I might be a rude halfwit, but I know where the boundary lies. Though I've mentioned it already multiple times, I'll reiterate a final time: Absolutely no concrete assurance (from CF officially) that the LuaJIT project will be developed openly. It has been moved to GitHub, distancing it from the long-appreciated mailing list and cementing it's position ion a platform that openly censors projects and actively enforces a code of conduct to further the narrative that code should take peoples' feelings into consideration. Github is widely used, and most of the alternatives suck, so it's an understandable sin. On top of all that, the murky posts on the actual list indicate no significant progress has been made on figuring out a new direction for the project, and little to no effort has been made to do more than announce to the community what's (allegedly) going on. Finally, the biggest disconnect between you and I is that if someone offered me money to take over a FOSS project and move to behind closed doors of a huge corporation, instead of agreeing and playing sock-puppet on mailing lists and twitter (who does that sound like?), I would out them to the community. I'm not asking for you to make changes, just voicing my dissent and my intent to take aggressive, direct action.
- jgrahamc 11y ago
  I very much doubt that you and I are going to come to agreement on this. Mike's been involved on the mailing list. Perhaps you should address this directly with him. Absolutely no concrete assurance (from CF officially) that the LuaJIT project will be developed openly. The other person who tweeted you was the CEO.
  - logicrime 11y ago
    There will be no agreement. We will hear each other's names again soon, I suspect. Probably when I drop 0day for CF LuaJIT.
- pygy_ 11y ago
  > Absolutely no concrete assurance (from CF officially) that the LuaJIT project will be developed openly. The project was never completely developed in the open, with the test suite and the interaction between sponsors and Mike being private. > On top of all that, the murky posts on the actual list indicate no significant progress has been made on figuring out a new direction for the project, and little to no effort has been made to do more than announce to the community what's (allegedly) going on. The progress is indeed slow, but it is not surprising given the short delay since the announcement and the complexity of the code. LuaJIT has currently a bus factor of one. Some people are familiar with some aspects of the code but there are no guaranties that they have the time to take over the project. From what I gather, ATM, Cloudflare doesn't have employees that could step up and replace Mike, which means it would be foolish of them to burn the bridges with the community. Edit, see also: https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/issues/45 https://github.com/LuaJIT/LuaJIT/issues/45
  - jgrahamc 11y ago
    From what I gather, ATM, Cloudflare doesn't have employees that could step up and replace Mike, which means it would be foolish of them to burn the bridges with the community. This is true. There is not obvious replacement for Mike at CloudFlare or elsewhere. I've been hoping that discussion on the mailing list would lead to someone emerging or a consensus. Also, Mike has said he wants the transition to be 'one to two months' and I have not personally been involved with the LuaJIT community so stepping as lightly as possible while trying to do what Mike wanted (which was have CloudFlare take the load off his shoulders and help the transition).