5 ms·

You don't have to feel bad for the victims - what they did was immoral, after all. But it wasn't illegal. And if we start cheering for moral brigades to leak da

by untog 11y ago

You don't have to feel bad for the victims - what they did was immoral, after all. But it wasn't illegal. And if we start cheering for moral brigades to leak data about perfectly legal actions, things get dark quickly. Imagine a patient list for an abortion clinic. Now, I don't think abortion is immoral. But plenty of people do. And you can bet they'd absolutely leak that information, which could also ruin lives. Basically, this is not a great precedent to set.

acqq 11y ago
> victims - what they did was immoral, after all Can you really say that? See my other post here for questions.
- untog 11y ago
  Well, perhaps. As you said in your other post: Do you still consider all these poor dastards as the big "sinners?" This is exactly the problem - maybe I think they are. Maybe you don't. Maybe someone else thinks anyone that did so much as load up the web site deserves to go to hell. But that's why making judgements about leaking based on your personal morals is bad, bad, bad.
DangerousPie 11y ago
This actually happened: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/13/bpas-hacker-james-jeffery-jailed http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/13/bpas-hacker-jam...
skissane 11y ago
Adultery is a crime and/or a tort in many jurisdictions worldwide. And I'm not just talking about places like Saudi Arabia - it's a crime in 21 US states, including New York and Massachusetts. Did Ashley Madison take any efforts to prevent access from jurisdictions where adultery is illegal? I doubt it. I'm not defending the data leak. It is criminal, and two wrongs don't make a right. But you can't compare an abortion clinic, operating in a jurisdiction in which abortion is completely legal, to an organisation seeking to facilitate what is criminal and/or tortious behaviour in many of the jurisdictions in which it chooses to operate.
- untog 11y ago
  Mr. Felder, who is also a former federal prosecutor, said the criminal ban on adultery has no practical significance. “It’s a celebration of hypocrisy, with a nod of the head to religion over reality,” he said. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/is-adultery-a-crime-in-new-york/ http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/is-adultery-a-c... I think it's fair to say that - within the US at least - laws against adultery are leftover relics from another time. Apparently there is still a $25 fine for flirting in public on the NY books. As the article states: About a dozen people have been charged with adultery since the early 1970s, most of them upstate. (Most of the charges were dismissed, or apparently were dropped after the defendants pleaded guilty to other charges.)
  - amyjess 11y ago
    Adultery is very much illegal, and actively prosecuted, in the US military. According to news articles, their customer database included thousands of .mil email addresses. They didn't even make a token effort to deny access to email addresses belonging to a TLD whose controller criminalizes adultery.
  - skissane 11y ago
    If a law is on the books, and has not been found unconstitutional, then it is sitting there waiting for a prosecutor to use it. In 2004, divorce attorney John R. Bushey Jr. was criminally prosecuted for adultery in Virginia. The prosecution dropped the charges after he agreed to do 20 hours of community service - I understand primarily because the ACLU wanted to pursue the constitutionality of the law, and the prosecution didn't want the risk and expense of that. No conviction was recorded, but I'm sure it was a stressful experience for him, and the prosecution probably thought the stress well-deserved. Why wouldn't they do the same in the future? No one knows whether laws against adultery are constitutional in the US. Some argue on the basis of Lawrence v. Texas they are not, but the US Supreme Court has never addressed that precise issue, and it could rule either way if it was ever presented with it.
- gpcz 11y ago
  Is an internationally-available Internet service running legally in its source jurisdiction obligated to prevent people from using it to break their local laws either legally or ethically?

by untog 11y ago

acqq 11y ago

> victims - what they did was immoral, after all Can you really say that? See my other post here for questions.

untog 11y ago
Well, perhaps. As you said in your other post: Do you still consider all these poor dastards as the big "sinners?" This is exactly the problem - maybe I think they are. Maybe you don't. Maybe someone else thinks anyone that did so much as load up the web site deserves to go to hell. But that's why making judgements about leaking based on your personal morals is bad, bad, bad.

DangerousPie 11y ago

This actually happened: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/13/bpas-hacker-james-jeffery-jailed http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/13/bpas-hacker-jam...

skissane 11y ago

Adultery is a crime and/or a tort in many jurisdictions worldwide. And I'm not just talking about places like Saudi Arabia - it's a crime in 21 US states, including New York and Massachusetts. Did Ashley Madison take any efforts to prevent access from jurisdictions where adultery is illegal? I doubt it. I'm not defending the data leak. It is criminal, and two wrongs don't make a right. But you can't compare an abortion clinic, operating in a jurisdiction in which abortion is completely legal, to an organisation seeking to facilitate what is criminal and/or tortious behaviour in many of the jurisdictions in which it chooses to operate.

untog 11y ago
Mr. Felder, who is also a former federal prosecutor, said the criminal ban on adultery has no practical significance. “It’s a celebration of hypocrisy, with a nod of the head to religion over reality,” he said. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/is-adultery-a-crime-in-new-york/ http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/is-adultery-a-c... I think it's fair to say that - within the US at least - laws against adultery are leftover relics from another time. Apparently there is still a $25 fine for flirting in public on the NY books. As the article states: About a dozen people have been charged with adultery since the early 1970s, most of them upstate. (Most of the charges were dismissed, or apparently were dropped after the defendants pleaded guilty to other charges.)
- amyjess 11y ago
  Adultery is very much illegal, and actively prosecuted, in the US military. According to news articles, their customer database included thousands of .mil email addresses. They didn't even make a token effort to deny access to email addresses belonging to a TLD whose controller criminalizes adultery.
- skissane 11y ago
  If a law is on the books, and has not been found unconstitutional, then it is sitting there waiting for a prosecutor to use it. In 2004, divorce attorney John R. Bushey Jr. was criminally prosecuted for adultery in Virginia. The prosecution dropped the charges after he agreed to do 20 hours of community service - I understand primarily because the ACLU wanted to pursue the constitutionality of the law, and the prosecution didn't want the risk and expense of that. No conviction was recorded, but I'm sure it was a stressful experience for him, and the prosecution probably thought the stress well-deserved. Why wouldn't they do the same in the future? No one knows whether laws against adultery are constitutional in the US. Some argue on the basis of Lawrence v. Texas they are not, but the US Supreme Court has never addressed that precise issue, and it could rule either way if it was ever presented with it.
gpcz 11y ago
Is an internationally-available Internet service running legally in its source jurisdiction obligated to prevent people from using it to break their local laws either legally or ethically?