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A lawyer can only represent a single entity during any given billable unit. This means the independent lawyer is completely dependent on other individuals for t

A lawyer can only represent a single entity during any given billable unit. This means the independent lawyer is completely dependent on other individuals for their entire income which must support all of their outlays. If a lawyer is entitled to the same work schedule (40 hours/week) as everyone else, then those 40 billable hours must be paid enough to support those outlays. That is why legal services are expensive. You are not just paying for a unit of work, but rather, subsidizing a lawyer's entire lifestyle.

thfuran 11y ago
And do lawyers typically incur considerable expenses during the course of their business? I guess I'm not really sure what outlays you are talking about.
- ghaff 11y ago
  I think by "outlays" parent was referring to net income, i.e. take home pay plus benefits. There are outlays however. An office for a start. Most likely at least a part-time assistant. Computers/subscriptions to various legal services. In addition, a 40 hour work week probably translates into something more along the lines of 20 billable hours given the inevitable variation in case load, personal time off for whatever, ongoing education, etc. Basically, it's the same reason that any consultant-type job (which a small law practice effectively is) has to charge hourly rates that at first blush may seem pretty high just to translate into the equivalent of, say, a $100K salary at a typical corporate job.
  - cplease 11y ago
    Lawyers who bill by the hour generally bill out their paralegals and administrative staff as well, at proportionally lower rates. So it's not just lawyers who are billing much of their time.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Mortgage/rent/utilities, food, clothing, transportation, etc. Probably similar to your outlays.
- acveilleux 11y ago
  Clothing, office, status are all more expensive than for say a programmer. A lawyer, to get clients, must "look successful." And a clever t-shirt costs a whole lot less than a discount suit.
  - ergothus 11y ago
    Heck, I know of people that rely on swag to provide them with Tshirts for life.
    - acveilleux 11y ago
      As a work from home programmer/IT guy, I can definitely relate with swag as work wear. I make it a rule to be dressed decently while working (cause frequent video conferencing/meetings) but I'm not going to put any more dollars into it than I need to until and unless I have to leave the house.
- ergothus 11y ago
  Lexis-Nexis and Westlaw access are essentially required to look up relevant cases. (to rile your fairness sensibilities, look into how much of a near-monopoly is enjoyed over public info there). That can be, IIRC, thousands/month. Then, depending on your area of work, you've got issues like software to record and cite websites, continuing legal education requirements, etc. Not the most expensive profession in terms of base costs, but not cheap either.
  - cplease 11y ago
    Lawyers who bill their time by the hour also bill their Lexis/Nexis or Westlaw fees back to their client.
- a3camero 11y ago
  Annual licensing fees (state bar fees) and professional liability insurance are things that programmers don't pay for* but lawyers do. *Some programmers have insurance but not to the extent that lawyers are required to have it.
mattmanser 11y ago
What are you blathering about? You could say exactly the same about a hairdresser.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  My guess is that I could say the same about every profession/person.
- ghaff 11y ago
  Yes you could--preferably in a less rude way. I took the parent's point as simply being that, glut or no glut, you're unlikely to see many sharp, competent lawyers billing at $25/hour. At that point, they're likely to go into any number of other professions instead.
- dang 11y ago
  > What are you blathering about? Whoa. You know you can't do this here. This comment would be fine without that rude bit. Please edit personal abrasiveness out of your posts on HN.
fizzbatter 11y ago
Offtopic, request to viewers: Please don't downvote without explaining why, responding, etc. I'm not asking you to debate the OP which you desire to downvote, but to simply explain why. Feel free to preface it with "I'm not going to debate you, or even reply to you, but here is why i downvoted you:" My reason for wishing this is, in areas that another viewer (myself, in this example) is unfamiliar with the topic at hand (law, lawyers, and etc) - a downvote can often be confusing. Is what the OP said non-factual? Are they bending the truth? Or is it simply a hot topic? Anyway, i could go on, but i'll likely end up wandering. Thanks for reading.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I think this is something that Digg got right (at some point, I believe). You had to submit some reason why you were burying a post. I would perhaps go farther and require the user to provide a free-text answer of a minimum character/word length to register a downvote.
  - odonnellryan 11y ago
    You actually seem to be getting downvoted. I don't know what to call that...
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Some classification of irony, I'm sure.
  - PeterWhittaker 11y ago
    This is why I almost always automatically upvote posts that were downvoted away....
rhino369 11y ago
You can't just charge what your credit card bill and rent add up to. The market doesn't work like that.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Yes, a persistent lawyer will have to manage their income and outlays and we must consider the other side of the market. As income rises so do outlays, outlays that can get tied up in ongoing obligations (mortgages, utility bills, car payments, telecommunications services, investment schedules, etc.). The supply side of the market (lawyers) quickly have incentives to be paid more for the same or less hours of work: so that they can support more outlays (kids, hobbies, greater projected retirement fund returns, etc). Of course, clients can just take their money and cut off the inflow to lawyers as you suggest; it is a definite risk.

thfuran 11y ago

And do lawyers typically incur considerable expenses during the course of their business? I guess I'm not really sure what outlays you are talking about.

ghaff 11y ago
I think by "outlays" parent was referring to net income, i.e. take home pay plus benefits. There are outlays however. An office for a start. Most likely at least a part-time assistant. Computers/subscriptions to various legal services. In addition, a 40 hour work week probably translates into something more along the lines of 20 billable hours given the inevitable variation in case load, personal time off for whatever, ongoing education, etc. Basically, it's the same reason that any consultant-type job (which a small law practice effectively is) has to charge hourly rates that at first blush may seem pretty high just to translate into the equivalent of, say, a $100K salary at a typical corporate job.
- cplease 11y ago
  Lawyers who bill by the hour generally bill out their paralegals and administrative staff as well, at proportionally lower rates. So it's not just lawyers who are billing much of their time.
jsprogrammer 11y ago
Mortgage/rent/utilities, food, clothing, transportation, etc. Probably similar to your outlays.
acveilleux 11y ago
Clothing, office, status are all more expensive than for say a programmer. A lawyer, to get clients, must "look successful." And a clever t-shirt costs a whole lot less than a discount suit.
- ergothus 11y ago
  Heck, I know of people that rely on swag to provide them with Tshirts for life.
  - acveilleux 11y ago
    As a work from home programmer/IT guy, I can definitely relate with swag as work wear. I make it a rule to be dressed decently while working (cause frequent video conferencing/meetings) but I'm not going to put any more dollars into it than I need to until and unless I have to leave the house.
ergothus 11y ago
Lexis-Nexis and Westlaw access are essentially required to look up relevant cases. (to rile your fairness sensibilities, look into how much of a near-monopoly is enjoyed over public info there). That can be, IIRC, thousands/month. Then, depending on your area of work, you've got issues like software to record and cite websites, continuing legal education requirements, etc. Not the most expensive profession in terms of base costs, but not cheap either.
- cplease 11y ago
  Lawyers who bill their time by the hour also bill their Lexis/Nexis or Westlaw fees back to their client.
a3camero 11y ago
Annual licensing fees (state bar fees) and professional liability insurance are things that programmers don't pay for* but lawyers do. *Some programmers have insurance but not to the extent that lawyers are required to have it.

mattmanser 11y ago

What are you blathering about? You could say exactly the same about a hairdresser.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
My guess is that I could say the same about every profession/person.
ghaff 11y ago
Yes you could--preferably in a less rude way. I took the parent's point as simply being that, glut or no glut, you're unlikely to see many sharp, competent lawyers billing at $25/hour. At that point, they're likely to go into any number of other professions instead.
dang 11y ago
> What are you blathering about? Whoa. You know you can't do this here. This comment would be fine without that rude bit. Please edit personal abrasiveness out of your posts on HN.

fizzbatter 11y ago

Offtopic, request to viewers: Please don't downvote without explaining why, responding, etc. I'm not asking you to debate the OP which you desire to downvote, but to simply explain why. Feel free to preface it with "I'm not going to debate you, or even reply to you, but here is why i downvoted you:" My reason for wishing this is, in areas that another viewer (myself, in this example) is unfamiliar with the topic at hand (law, lawyers, and etc) - a downvote can often be confusing. Is what the OP said non-factual? Are they bending the truth? Or is it simply a hot topic? Anyway, i could go on, but i'll likely end up wandering. Thanks for reading.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
I think this is something that Digg got right (at some point, I believe). You had to submit some reason why you were burying a post. I would perhaps go farther and require the user to provide a free-text answer of a minimum character/word length to register a downvote.
- odonnellryan 11y ago
  You actually seem to be getting downvoted. I don't know what to call that...
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Some classification of irony, I'm sure.
- PeterWhittaker 11y ago
  This is why I almost always automatically upvote posts that were downvoted away....

rhino369 11y ago

You can't just charge what your credit card bill and rent add up to. The market doesn't work like that.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
Yes, a persistent lawyer will have to manage their income and outlays and we must consider the other side of the market. As income rises so do outlays, outlays that can get tied up in ongoing obligations (mortgages, utility bills, car payments, telecommunications services, investment schedules, etc.). The supply side of the market (lawyers) quickly have incentives to be paid more for the same or less hours of work: so that they can support more outlays (kids, hobbies, greater projected retirement fund returns, etc). Of course, clients can just take their money and cut off the inflow to lawyers as you suggest; it is a definite risk.