6 ms·

I do wonder about the logic of collecting the email addresses of interested parties, then sending them 2000 and 8000 word (respectively) essays. Do people actu

by ctz 11y ago

I do wonder about the logic of collecting the email addresses of interested parties, then sending them 2000 and 8000 word (respectively) essays. Do people actually read and value such long emails? Do you not lose a bunch of on-the-fence users each time you send them an email which isn't immediately useful or actionable? Then again, I know very little about running a startup; patio11 has a track record. Maybe this works as a strategy.

kbenson 11y ago
It may work to radicalize a certain segment. I've noticed that some segment of those that are eagerly anticipating something find that the more information they get about it, the more they anticipate it, and the more eagerly they evangelize it to others. I hadn't heard of this, or microcorruption, before the prior blog post regarding writing the emulator. Then I started microcorruption, and it clicked, and then I spent the next few days talking about both microcorruption and starfighter to anyone I thought might understand my eager rambling. Let's just say I'm looking forward to reading this...
patio11 11y ago
Do you not lose a bunch of on-the-fence users each time you send them an email which isn't immediately useful or actionable? That's a number which is trivially calculable. I don't know what it will be yet, but if you asked me to pick the over/under, I'm in for 80 out of 16k people on our list at present. An unsubscribe is not "I hate you guys and wish you would die in a fire"; it's the email equivalent of a browser's back button. "Not for me, not right now." Many startups let each unsubscribe punch them in the gut. Don't do that. The only way to avoid unsubscribes is to avoid email. You profoundly don't want to avoid email. We've sent ~2 emails since... March? If I were a consulting client of myself, I'd have written somewhere between one and two dozen. Is this email going to produce business results for the company? Hard to say. Wild guess? I get a contact in the next hour from one of the companies who has a stalled LOI saying "Oh great you're shipping let's get that signed." Depending on which company that is, the economics are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many professional email marketers strongly disagree with writing long emails. I will chalk that up to a respectable professional disagreement. They work very well for me, by any trackable metric and by most of the intangibles. I've never felt like I created much value with the little 125-word-and-a-picture squibs that the industry blasts out by the hundred million; I know (because people tell me) that some people like my writing rather a lot and are disappointed that I don't hit them with 8k words every Friday. As it happens, a portion of Starfighter's list is folks who are in exactly that bucket. Does that answer the question? Not trying to be very defensive about this, just trying to help other startups out. The modal startup sucks at email marketing. It is, far and away, the highest ROI channel you have and probably the easiest to use well. You should send more email. You should send better email.
- lifeisstillgood 11y ago
  Agreed - it just feels nicer to read fewer longer emails - sort of New Yorker vs CNN tickertron. Of course writing them is a pain so it's an investment. Considering I just gave a friend the "you must write long articles and build an audience" advice, it's amazing how badly I take my own advice...
- jc4p 11y ago
  Just anecdotal evidence: The two e-mails y'all have sent since I signed up have caused a pavlovian response, I literally left my office and sat down on a couch to read your last e-mail the second I saw it in my inbox.
  - gknoy 11y ago
    I do that whenever I see anything from Patrick posted on HN, and getting it delivered in my email box has a similar effect. I would say that I have an irrational enjoyment of reading things that he writes, but I actually think it's pretty rational -- I've never read anything by him that didn't exceed my expectations of information, humor, and valuable content.
  - captaindiego 11y ago
    To add to the anecdotal evidence I had exactly the same response. Most of the emails are light and fluffy. It's refreshing to receive something with some real meat to it. I've gone from initially being on the fence, to being very excited after the first email, and more so after the second.
- grayclhn 11y ago
  One more anecdote: I read the email immediately, shared it with anyone I thought would be interested, and started to count down how long it would be before I could play the game with my 6yo daughter. So, um, it's working for me so far.
- thenomad 11y ago
  As a data point - I'm one of the people Patrick mentions. I like his writing a lot and would be very happy to see an 8k word essay from him every Friday. He's on my very short list of 3 or so people who do email marketing particularly well. One of the other people on that list, incidentally, writes 200-ish word emails every day. I read everything she writes too. There's not a single optimal solution here. (I'm also very much looking forward to playing the game after reading that post. Given I'm not a professional programmer, I have very little desire to become one, I'm very happy in my current jobs, and I suspect Stockfighter is going to kick my ass until I can wear it like a hat, that's of dubious business value to Starfighter, but I guess I'll probably also recommend it to some folk who may be of more value...)
svec 11y ago
I read it, and look forward to more! I signed up for a tech-heavy game-ish thing, so I expect (and welcome!) tech-heavy content.
thebrettd 11y ago
I find the emails verbose, and don't really care for the for the prose. That being said, at least in my head, when its public i'll say 'here goes'.
Sukotto 11y ago
To be one data point. I read everything Patrick (and Amy Hoy and Brennan Dunn and Ramit Sethi and a few others) emails me. All tend to be long form (typically x,000 words) essays and/or sales letters. My ROI on time spent reading has been totally positive and I have no plans to stop.

by ctz 11y ago

kbenson 11y ago

It may work to radicalize a certain segment. I've noticed that some segment of those that are eagerly anticipating something find that the more information they get about it, the more they anticipate it, and the more eagerly they evangelize it to others. I hadn't heard of this, or microcorruption, before the prior blog post regarding writing the emulator. Then I started microcorruption, and it clicked, and then I spent the next few days talking about both microcorruption and starfighter to anyone I thought might understand my eager rambling. Let's just say I'm looking forward to reading this...

patio11 11y ago

Do you not lose a bunch of on-the-fence users each time you send them an email which isn't immediately useful or actionable? That's a number which is trivially calculable. I don't know what it will be yet, but if you asked me to pick the over/under, I'm in for 80 out of 16k people on our list at present. An unsubscribe is not "I hate you guys and wish you would die in a fire"; it's the email equivalent of a browser's back button. "Not for me, not right now." Many startups let each unsubscribe punch them in the gut. Don't do that. The only way to avoid unsubscribes is to avoid email. You profoundly don't want to avoid email. We've sent ~2 emails since... March? If I were a consulting client of myself, I'd have written somewhere between one and two dozen. Is this email going to produce business results for the company? Hard to say. Wild guess? I get a contact in the next hour from one of the companies who has a stalled LOI saying "Oh great you're shipping let's get that signed." Depending on which company that is, the economics are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many professional email marketers strongly disagree with writing long emails. I will chalk that up to a respectable professional disagreement. They work very well for me, by any trackable metric and by most of the intangibles. I've never felt like I created much value with the little 125-word-and-a-picture squibs that the industry blasts out by the hundred million; I know (because people tell me) that some people like my writing rather a lot and are disappointed that I don't hit them with 8k words every Friday. As it happens, a portion of Starfighter's list is folks who are in exactly that bucket. Does that answer the question? Not trying to be very defensive about this, just trying to help other startups out. The modal startup sucks at email marketing. It is, far and away, the highest ROI channel you have and probably the easiest to use well. You should send more email. You should send better email.

lifeisstillgood 11y ago
Agreed - it just feels nicer to read fewer longer emails - sort of New Yorker vs CNN tickertron. Of course writing them is a pain so it's an investment. Considering I just gave a friend the "you must write long articles and build an audience" advice, it's amazing how badly I take my own advice...
jc4p 11y ago
Just anecdotal evidence: The two e-mails y'all have sent since I signed up have caused a pavlovian response, I literally left my office and sat down on a couch to read your last e-mail the second I saw it in my inbox.
- gknoy 11y ago
  I do that whenever I see anything from Patrick posted on HN, and getting it delivered in my email box has a similar effect. I would say that I have an irrational enjoyment of reading things that he writes, but I actually think it's pretty rational -- I've never read anything by him that didn't exceed my expectations of information, humor, and valuable content.
- captaindiego 11y ago
  To add to the anecdotal evidence I had exactly the same response. Most of the emails are light and fluffy. It's refreshing to receive something with some real meat to it. I've gone from initially being on the fence, to being very excited after the first email, and more so after the second.
grayclhn 11y ago
One more anecdote: I read the email immediately, shared it with anyone I thought would be interested, and started to count down how long it would be before I could play the game with my 6yo daughter. So, um, it's working for me so far.
thenomad 11y ago
As a data point - I'm one of the people Patrick mentions. I like his writing a lot and would be very happy to see an 8k word essay from him every Friday. He's on my very short list of 3 or so people who do email marketing particularly well. One of the other people on that list, incidentally, writes 200-ish word emails every day. I read everything she writes too. There's not a single optimal solution here. (I'm also very much looking forward to playing the game after reading that post. Given I'm not a professional programmer, I have very little desire to become one, I'm very happy in my current jobs, and I suspect Stockfighter is going to kick my ass until I can wear it like a hat, that's of dubious business value to Starfighter, but I guess I'll probably also recommend it to some folk who may be of more value...)

svec 11y ago

I read it, and look forward to more! I signed up for a tech-heavy game-ish thing, so I expect (and welcome!) tech-heavy content.

thebrettd 11y ago

I find the emails verbose, and don't really care for the for the prose. That being said, at least in my head, when its public i'll say 'here goes'.

Sukotto 11y ago

To be one data point. I read everything Patrick (and Amy Hoy and Brennan Dunn and Ramit Sethi and a few others) emails me. All tend to be long form (typically x,000 words) essays and/or sales letters. My ROI on time spent reading has been totally positive and I have no plans to stop.