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Note: I’ve written this from the perspective of the tech industry, since that’s my perspective, but the pattern definitely exists prominently in other industrie

by rsp1984 11y ago

Note: I’ve written this from the perspective of the tech industry, since that’s my perspective, but the pattern definitely exists prominently in other industries, and in companies across all industries. I'd say it's written from the perspective of someone who's already seen a lot of success and wealth in his life and now has the luxury of writing about how to live well. I (and I assume many other founders in the startup world) work about 70 to 80 hours a week. I feel responsibility for my business. If s*t isn't done on a Friday afternoon and people are waiting for it I'm not going to say "Well it's home time. See you on Monday". That's just not how it works.

bigredtech 11y ago
Unless it's actually "your business" and you are a founder, then leaving on Friday after this 80 hour week is ok. If it's 6pm or 7pm on a Friday and you have worked 80 hours that week, and you need to work more, then you've scheduled something wrong or management has. And, if you're a founder, who is imparting a culture of leaving to get rest on a Friday evening is not ok, or working 70-80 hour weeks is the norm, then good luck with that culture when people turn resentful. Respecting yourself and your life and your employees lives while trying to be successful ... that's how it works. *General "you", not necessarily rsp1984
- rsp1984 11y ago
  I am the founder. When it's Friday afternoon I have worked around 50 to 60 hours. The rest 10-20 hours I do over the weekend. My employees have regular 40 hour work weeks.
pjmlp 11y ago
80 hours?! Oh man, I am really glad to live in Europe.
- SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
  How does that help? Pretty sure the working time regulations - as with most employment laws designed to protect normal employees from exploitation such as minimum wage - don't apply to a business owner working on their own business. That's certainly my experience here in the UK anyway.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    I don't know exactly how it works, but I am pretty sure work regulations in Germany also apply to business owners. Specially insurances will not be covering certain work related diseases with that type of workload. It has been a continuous discussion in the press in the last years, to the point some companies started enforcing a "go home" policy. For example, sorry in German, http://www.spiegel.de/karriere/berufsleben/erreichbar-nach-dienstschluss-massnahmen-der-konzerne-a-954029.html http://www.spiegel.de/karriere/berufsleben/erreichbar-nach-d...
- roel_v 11y ago
  I don't understand this sort of reaction. In Europe, to be successful, you have to work hard and long, too. Please tell me what your definition of 'success' is if you go home after 35 or 40 hours.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    But never > 80 hours, 60 maybe. In Germany there are laws that limit how many hours one is allowed to do continuously each month.
    - roel_v 11y ago
      Yeah, and there are laws against jaywalking too, what's your point? Half my office did 60+ hour weeks when I worked in Germany. That was the culture, didn't like it? Fine, go somewhere else, but the pay, the kind of work and the career prospects will be worse for it.
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        There is a better way than just going elsewhere. Report the working conditions to Arbeitsamt. Knowing the law is quite valuable and abuse only works when everyone keeps quiet.
        roel_v 11y ago
        8| not sure if I'm just being trolled here... There is no way to have a 'career' (as opposed to a 'job', of course) without working more than 40 hours a week. (not saying 80 hours for 15 years either, but certainly more than 40). Of course one can be that petty guy who goes around citing Henry Ford and 'work life balance' and that whole spiel... but guess what, those people will never advance to anywhere. Professionals know that.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        My "career" is the prof one can have a career without being a slave of capitalism. It helps when companies play by the rules with the Works Council and the respective unions. And yes, I am one of those guys that would disclose bad working conditions to the Arbeitsamt.
jasonkester 11y ago
What happened when you tried working a 40 hour week as an experiment? Did your business crumble and force you to work 120 hours the next week just to put it back together? Or did things work out fine? Or have you not tried that? If you haven't, what do you expect would happen if you did? From experience, I can tell you that things will work out fine. You'll get your product shipped, support your customers, and have roughly the same chance of surviving if you work sane hours. When I was crunching to ship Twiddla, I would average between 20 and 30 hours per week. About the same amount of time I dedicated to Rock Climbing, wandering the streets of Pamplona, and sipping wine on the balcony watching the world go by with my girlfriend. Every work day I would come in fresh, with a good idea of what needed building, go heads down in the morning and come up for air around 3pm to find a cold half cup of morning coffee on my desk, next to a cold lunch that my girlfriend had evidently snuck in and deposited at some point. That was the most productive year of my life. I shipped a product that pays for my lifestyle today. And I never worked more than 40 hours in a single week. I'd recommend you give that a shot. It sounds a lot more enjoyable than what you're doing.
- dasboth 11y ago
  I wish it were easier to get this past employers. "Look, I'm more motivated and productive if I work max. 40 hours, preferably 30."
- rsp1984 11y ago
  It sounds like you have an enjoyable life then. Congratulations. I feel happy for you. Look, I am not complaining about my situation. I signed up for this. I like what I do. I just get really sick when people claim "you are going to be sooo much more productive" if you work less. Like it was a general truth. Like they are an authority and know better. Like it applied to everyone and everything at all times. Like there was no need to look at a particular situation and then decide if it's a statement that's actually more than a phrase. And btw I would really appreciate it if people wouldn't down-vote my comments just because they disagree. That would make this community just a whole lot better.
  - daviross 11y ago
normloman 11y ago
"That's just not how it works" isn't a reasoned argument. Tell us the real reason why you insist on working yourself to exhaustion despite solid evidence that it makes you less productive.
jazzyk 11y ago
I vehemently disagree with the sub-thread parent above (rsp1984), but it should not be down-voted. There are many people out there who represent this point of view. Let's not have an echo chamber here.
JD557 11y ago
> If s*t isn't done on a Friday afternoon and people are waiting for it I'm not going to say "Well it's home time. See you on Monday". That's just not how it works. I think the problem here is: Why are people waiting for it? Why can't they wait until Monday? Usually the reason for this is simple: You scheduled something important (eg. a deploy or a release) to a Friday or a Thursday. If you force yourself to schedule important stuff to Mondays, you'll see things running much more smoothly (even if everything breaks down, you probably have enough time to have it fixed by Wednesday).

by rsp1984 11y ago

bigredtech 11y ago

Unless it's actually "your business" and you are a founder, then leaving on Friday after this 80 hour week is ok. If it's 6pm or 7pm on a Friday and you have worked 80 hours that week, and you need to work more, then you've scheduled something wrong or management has. And, if you're a founder, who is imparting a culture of leaving to get rest on a Friday evening is not ok, or working 70-80 hour weeks is the norm, then good luck with that culture when people turn resentful. Respecting yourself and your life and your employees lives while trying to be successful ... that's how it works. *General "you", not necessarily rsp1984

rsp1984 11y ago
I am the founder. When it's Friday afternoon I have worked around 50 to 60 hours. The rest 10-20 hours I do over the weekend. My employees have regular 40 hour work weeks.

pjmlp 11y ago

80 hours?! Oh man, I am really glad to live in Europe.

SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
How does that help? Pretty sure the working time regulations - as with most employment laws designed to protect normal employees from exploitation such as minimum wage - don't apply to a business owner working on their own business. That's certainly my experience here in the UK anyway.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  I don't know exactly how it works, but I am pretty sure work regulations in Germany also apply to business owners. Specially insurances will not be covering certain work related diseases with that type of workload. It has been a continuous discussion in the press in the last years, to the point some companies started enforcing a "go home" policy. For example, sorry in German, http://www.spiegel.de/karriere/berufsleben/erreichbar-nach-dienstschluss-massnahmen-der-konzerne-a-954029.html http://www.spiegel.de/karriere/berufsleben/erreichbar-nach-d...
roel_v 11y ago
I don't understand this sort of reaction. In Europe, to be successful, you have to work hard and long, too. Please tell me what your definition of 'success' is if you go home after 35 or 40 hours.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  But never > 80 hours, 60 maybe. In Germany there are laws that limit how many hours one is allowed to do continuously each month.
  - roel_v 11y ago
    Yeah, and there are laws against jaywalking too, what's your point? Half my office did 60+ hour weeks when I worked in Germany. That was the culture, didn't like it? Fine, go somewhere else, but the pay, the kind of work and the career prospects will be worse for it.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      There is a better way than just going elsewhere. Report the working conditions to Arbeitsamt. Knowing the law is quite valuable and abuse only works when everyone keeps quiet.
      - roel_v 11y ago
        8| not sure if I'm just being trolled here... There is no way to have a 'career' (as opposed to a 'job', of course) without working more than 40 hours a week. (not saying 80 hours for 15 years either, but certainly more than 40). Of course one can be that petty guy who goes around citing Henry Ford and 'work life balance' and that whole spiel... but guess what, those people will never advance to anywhere. Professionals know that.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        My "career" is the prof one can have a career without being a slave of capitalism. It helps when companies play by the rules with the Works Council and the respective unions. And yes, I am one of those guys that would disclose bad working conditions to the Arbeitsamt.

jasonkester 11y ago

What happened when you tried working a 40 hour week as an experiment? Did your business crumble and force you to work 120 hours the next week just to put it back together? Or did things work out fine? Or have you not tried that? If you haven't, what do you expect would happen if you did? From experience, I can tell you that things will work out fine. You'll get your product shipped, support your customers, and have roughly the same chance of surviving if you work sane hours. When I was crunching to ship Twiddla, I would average between 20 and 30 hours per week. About the same amount of time I dedicated to Rock Climbing, wandering the streets of Pamplona, and sipping wine on the balcony watching the world go by with my girlfriend. Every work day I would come in fresh, with a good idea of what needed building, go heads down in the morning and come up for air around 3pm to find a cold half cup of morning coffee on my desk, next to a cold lunch that my girlfriend had evidently snuck in and deposited at some point. That was the most productive year of my life. I shipped a product that pays for my lifestyle today. And I never worked more than 40 hours in a single week. I'd recommend you give that a shot. It sounds a lot more enjoyable than what you're doing.

dasboth 11y ago
I wish it were easier to get this past employers. "Look, I'm more motivated and productive if I work max. 40 hours, preferably 30."
rsp1984 11y ago
It sounds like you have an enjoyable life then. Congratulations. I feel happy for you. Look, I am not complaining about my situation. I signed up for this. I like what I do. I just get really sick when people claim "you are going to be sooo much more productive" if you work less. Like it was a general truth. Like they are an authority and know better. Like it applied to everyone and everything at all times. Like there was no need to look at a particular situation and then decide if it's a statement that's actually more than a phrase. And btw I would really appreciate it if people wouldn't down-vote my comments just because they disagree. That would make this community just a whole lot better.
- daviross 11y ago

normloman 11y ago

"That's just not how it works" isn't a reasoned argument. Tell us the real reason why you insist on working yourself to exhaustion despite solid evidence that it makes you less productive.

jazzyk 11y ago

I vehemently disagree with the sub-thread parent above (rsp1984), but it should not be down-voted. There are many people out there who represent this point of view. Let's not have an echo chamber here.

JD557 11y ago

> If s*t isn't done on a Friday afternoon and people are waiting for it I'm not going to say "Well it's home time. See you on Monday". That's just not how it works. I think the problem here is: Why are people waiting for it? Why can't they wait until Monday? Usually the reason for this is simple: You scheduled something important (eg. a deploy or a release) to a Friday or a Thursday. If you force yourself to schedule important stuff to Mondays, you'll see things running much more smoothly (even if everything breaks down, you probably have enough time to have it fixed by Wednesday).