8 ms·

Many of the reviews of Avatar have focused on the (over-)simplicity of the plot. I don't understand these people. Avatar is packed with so much visual confectio

by seldo 17y ago

Many of the reviews of Avatar have focused on the (over-)simplicity of the plot. I don't understand these people. Avatar is packed with so much visual confection that I could barely process half of what I was seeing; I wouldn't have had any brain left over to _understand_ a plot. Who cares about the plot? It's beautiful. Amazingly, wonderfully, brilliantly beautiful.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
emmett 17y ago
Egan gets your point entirely, and laments that it hasn't been put in service of something better. The best technology in the world deserves to be joined with a great script, not a severely impaired one.
- akkartik 17y ago
  An awesome example of script+effects: Who Framed Roger Rabbit
- mwerty 17y ago
  and non-cringeworthy dialogues.
- ars 17y ago
  All new technologies are first paired with non-risky material. So they use a non-risky script, with nothing objectionable in it. Once the technology matures you can use a better script. The price of better is that sometimes it's worse, that's why it's a risk. If it was a sure thing everyone would do it, but it's not easy to create something great. You can try, and sometimes you'll make it, and other times you'll flop. Which is too much of a risk for a new technology - better to have something good enough, with little risk. Remember: Everyone thinks what they are doing is great. But if you are wrong, and it's a flagship product you are doomed. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavens_Gate_(film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavens_Gate_(film)
  - hugh_ 17y ago
    So they use a non-risky script, with nothing objectionable in it. How did we get to the point where "Humans are evil, kill them all!" is a non-risky script with nothing objectionable in it?
    - gnaritas 17y ago
      Because it wasn't a humans are evil, kill them all plot, it was a standard corporations are evil and stupid and scientists are good and help the natives plot. Humans were the good guys here as well as the bad.
  - Daniel_Newby 17y ago
    That would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28film%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28film%29 Joe Valdez at This Distracted Globe has a good review: http://thisdistractedglobe.com/2009/01/01/heavens-gate/ http://thisdistractedglobe.com/2009/01/01/heavens-gate/ TL;DR version: quit perfecting and ship it!
  - anatoly 17y ago
    Why are you repeating the points Egan already made as though they were novel? He says in his review the same things as you're saying. "Sometime in the next twenty years or so, the technology that enabled Avatar will become cheap enough to risk employing alongside a moderately intelligent script." - it's right there in the review. It's frustrating when this happens: Author: A, yet also B. You may think that C, but I'd argue that D makes that untenable. Commenter: He said A, but clearly C. Another commenter: Hmm, C you say? But what about D? Another commenter: y'all are too swept up in your As and Cs and Ds, have you even stopped to consider B?
    - cousin_it 17y ago
      Digression: I felt this comment of yours sounded much more natural than the Russian translation you posted on your blog, even though you're a native Russian speaker. And people still ask me why I prefer to make complex arguments in English!
michael_nielsen 17y ago
Complaining about the plot does seem like complaining about the font in a copy of War and Peace. Avatar is a combination of world-building and world-rendering on a scale never before seen.
- winthrowe 17y ago
  I plan to see the film tomorrow, but the video game does give credit to the world-building aspect. I was quite ambivalent about the key materiel being called unobtainium at first, but after reading a backstory article, it seems quite appropriate. Perhaps the movie itself is just part of it, but overall he seems to have brought forth a detailed universe, even if it is only glossed over in the movie.
lsd5you 17y ago
I would argue it is to do with the medium. The feature length film needs a plot to sustain interest, for me and apparently at least a few other people. If it's just a technology demo then it can be over and done with in 10 minutes - in Avatar they could have just started with the final battle. If Avatar were such a tech demo, then your comment would be unassailable, but as it is as a film is a bit lack-lustre.
jacoblyles 17y ago
If you're reviewing a movie then the weakness of the plot is something valid to comment on. Plot is usually considered an important part of a movie. I was enthralled by the movie from beginning to end; my friend was squirming in his seat and commenting on how long it was. Different people like different things about movies.
plinkplonk 17y ago
"Who cares about the plot?" I do. (Sorry for being ...uh .... different). yes it looks cool. Some of us expectt more in a movie. Sorry about that. I personally found the warmed over "Stupid White Man penetrates exotic closed society and rises to be leader of it, seducing the native woman" plot tiresome, repetitive and tedious, especially with the clunkiest dialogue I've heard in a decade, and insufficiently compensated for by the technology/visuals. I found the "noble savages" idea and infantile hippy politics and preaching tiresome too. For some of us lesser mortals good graphics/special effects is just one element of a good Scifi/fantasy movie, and then not the most important aspect. (from the review) " what it really felt like to me was a fourth movie in the Shrek franchise, pipping the yet-to-be-released Shrek Forever After to extrapolate that series' twin curves of rising technical achievement and plumetting wit to their logical endpoint: a near-immaculate feat of visualisation, accompanied by a staggeringly awful plot in which clunky genre conventions triumph completely over plausibility and originality. Avatar even boasts its very own love story where societal expectations and superficial barriers of size and pastelicity are overcome by generous helpings of pixie dust." This expresses my feelings perfectly, but I wouldn't be so polite. I think Avatar is a terrible movie with gorgeous visuals and nothing else. Aliens != Red Indians in fancy dress. The movie insults my intelligence on multiple levels. Yes I know, Caveat Emptor and all that, but I guess it must be because I am one of "these people"?
- elblanco 17y ago
  Netflix also rents our pedantic art house flicks so you never have to be troubled by what the rest of us mortals watch for escapism. I'm sure you can find some overwrought deconstruction of modern human sexuality retold as 4 movements of the lives of people in positions of authority but no power, politicians of the modern era in a mock nuclear stand-down, a 30 minute continuous scene of a single flower, in water, as people pass by blurred in the bokeh of an extreme depth of field and the audio recorded so poorly you can't actually hear what anybody is saying, and a clinically shot orgy with a clown stepping in at minute 11 to juggle, seemingly unaware of his own environs -- driven by the effort to juggle so many balls. In the end, the clown drops the balls and close to credits. The credits of course will flow up and will be in a mix of Italian and French. Each scene of course representing impotence, sexual drive, narcissism as a sexual trait, and lust and the struggle to balance a polygamous relationship with three waitress and a gay hairdresser at the same time (as the director was experiencing while he shot this film). The credits of course flow up in Italian and French as a both symbols of ejaculation and of salad dressing. Enjoy the search! http://www.netflix.com/ http://www.netflix.com/
blhack 17y ago
Who cares about the plot? It's beautiful. Amazingly, wonderfully, brilliantly beautiful. There is a wonderfully realistic, fully immersive, 3D environment right outside my office window right now, but I don't care. Want to know why? Because the plot is boring. I get out of my chair, walk to my car, go to the gas-station, and then go home to play with my dog and go to bed. The end. People go to movies because it is better than reality. Perhaps those who never leave their couch are wowed by images that look exactly like reality, but Avatar's visual effects wowed me only in a "well, it looks like they finally did it properly!" sense. No offense to anyone who worked on this film, it is a staggering technical achievement, but it doesn't really do anything that reality doesn't. /this might be due to my being a bit bitter that I can't see the 3D version due to my non-stereoscopic vision :(.
- elblanco 17y ago
  > but it doesn't really do anything that reality doesn't. Apparently you live on Pandora, where you can look at the office window right now and see the alien planet with floating mountains, giant six legged carnivores, pack hunters, bio-luminescent forests, two kinds (count them 2) of flying dragons and 12 foot tall blue skinned people with tails and braids with autonomous nerve endings at the end that can mentally bond with all of the above (sans the flying mountains).
  - theli0nheart 17y ago
    Awesome.
sever 17y ago
The point is that the movie could have been so much more. The visuals are incredible, I think the best ever done so far, that's what makes it all the more unfortunate that the story was weak. With a strong plot, and the visuals this movie could have been over the top, goosebumps incredible. Instead I went out of the movie theater sad that all this incredible artistry was wasted and what a shame that was. I think Cameron lost it. The story was a nothing, and there were a few lines in there so bad, you don't even often see their equal on terrible sitcom TV. They were cheesy video game cut scene bad, only the godhead visual prevented me from wincing. I'd still recommend for folks to see this movie, it is incredible, but what a shame...

by seldo 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

emmett 17y ago

Egan gets your point entirely, and laments that it hasn't been put in service of something better. The best technology in the world deserves to be joined with a great script, not a severely impaired one.

akkartik 17y ago
An awesome example of script+effects: Who Framed Roger Rabbit
mwerty 17y ago
and non-cringeworthy dialogues.
ars 17y ago
All new technologies are first paired with non-risky material. So they use a non-risky script, with nothing objectionable in it. Once the technology matures you can use a better script. The price of better is that sometimes it's worse, that's why it's a risk. If it was a sure thing everyone would do it, but it's not easy to create something great. You can try, and sometimes you'll make it, and other times you'll flop. Which is too much of a risk for a new technology - better to have something good enough, with little risk. Remember: Everyone thinks what they are doing is great. But if you are wrong, and it's a flagship product you are doomed. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavens_Gate_(film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavens_Gate_(film)
- hugh_ 17y ago
  So they use a non-risky script, with nothing objectionable in it. How did we get to the point where "Humans are evil, kill them all!" is a non-risky script with nothing objectionable in it?
  - gnaritas 17y ago
    Because it wasn't a humans are evil, kill them all plot, it was a standard corporations are evil and stupid and scientists are good and help the natives plot. Humans were the good guys here as well as the bad.
- Daniel_Newby 17y ago
  That would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28film%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28film%29 Joe Valdez at This Distracted Globe has a good review: http://thisdistractedglobe.com/2009/01/01/heavens-gate/ http://thisdistractedglobe.com/2009/01/01/heavens-gate/ TL;DR version: quit perfecting and ship it!
- anatoly 17y ago
  Why are you repeating the points Egan already made as though they were novel? He says in his review the same things as you're saying. "Sometime in the next twenty years or so, the technology that enabled Avatar will become cheap enough to risk employing alongside a moderately intelligent script." - it's right there in the review. It's frustrating when this happens: Author: A, yet also B. You may think that C, but I'd argue that D makes that untenable. Commenter: He said A, but clearly C. Another commenter: Hmm, C you say? But what about D? Another commenter: y'all are too swept up in your As and Cs and Ds, have you even stopped to consider B?
  - cousin_it 17y ago
    Digression: I felt this comment of yours sounded much more natural than the Russian translation you posted on your blog, even though you're a native Russian speaker. And people still ask me why I prefer to make complex arguments in English!

michael_nielsen 17y ago

Complaining about the plot does seem like complaining about the font in a copy of War and Peace. Avatar is a combination of world-building and world-rendering on a scale never before seen.

winthrowe 17y ago
I plan to see the film tomorrow, but the video game does give credit to the world-building aspect. I was quite ambivalent about the key materiel being called unobtainium at first, but after reading a backstory article, it seems quite appropriate. Perhaps the movie itself is just part of it, but overall he seems to have brought forth a detailed universe, even if it is only glossed over in the movie.

lsd5you 17y ago

I would argue it is to do with the medium. The feature length film needs a plot to sustain interest, for me and apparently at least a few other people. If it's just a technology demo then it can be over and done with in 10 minutes - in Avatar they could have just started with the final battle. If Avatar were such a tech demo, then your comment would be unassailable, but as it is as a film is a bit lack-lustre.

jacoblyles 17y ago

If you're reviewing a movie then the weakness of the plot is something valid to comment on. Plot is usually considered an important part of a movie. I was enthralled by the movie from beginning to end; my friend was squirming in his seat and commenting on how long it was. Different people like different things about movies.

plinkplonk 17y ago

"Who cares about the plot?" I do. (Sorry for being ...uh .... different). yes it looks cool. Some of us expectt more in a movie. Sorry about that. I personally found the warmed over "Stupid White Man penetrates exotic closed society and rises to be leader of it, seducing the native woman" plot tiresome, repetitive and tedious, especially with the clunkiest dialogue I've heard in a decade, and insufficiently compensated for by the technology/visuals. I found the "noble savages" idea and infantile hippy politics and preaching tiresome too. For some of us lesser mortals good graphics/special effects is just one element of a good Scifi/fantasy movie, and then not the most important aspect. (from the review) " what it really felt like to me was a fourth movie in the Shrek franchise, pipping the yet-to-be-released Shrek Forever After to extrapolate that series' twin curves of rising technical achievement and plumetting wit to their logical endpoint: a near-immaculate feat of visualisation, accompanied by a staggeringly awful plot in which clunky genre conventions triumph completely over plausibility and originality. Avatar even boasts its very own love story where societal expectations and superficial barriers of size and pastelicity are overcome by generous helpings of pixie dust." This expresses my feelings perfectly, but I wouldn't be so polite. I think Avatar is a terrible movie with gorgeous visuals and nothing else. Aliens != Red Indians in fancy dress. The movie insults my intelligence on multiple levels. Yes I know, Caveat Emptor and all that, but I guess it must be because I am one of "these people"?

elblanco 17y ago
Netflix also rents our pedantic art house flicks so you never have to be troubled by what the rest of us mortals watch for escapism. I'm sure you can find some overwrought deconstruction of modern human sexuality retold as 4 movements of the lives of people in positions of authority but no power, politicians of the modern era in a mock nuclear stand-down, a 30 minute continuous scene of a single flower, in water, as people pass by blurred in the bokeh of an extreme depth of field and the audio recorded so poorly you can't actually hear what anybody is saying, and a clinically shot orgy with a clown stepping in at minute 11 to juggle, seemingly unaware of his own environs -- driven by the effort to juggle so many balls. In the end, the clown drops the balls and close to credits. The credits of course will flow up and will be in a mix of Italian and French. Each scene of course representing impotence, sexual drive, narcissism as a sexual trait, and lust and the struggle to balance a polygamous relationship with three waitress and a gay hairdresser at the same time (as the director was experiencing while he shot this film). The credits of course flow up in Italian and French as a both symbols of ejaculation and of salad dressing. Enjoy the search! http://www.netflix.com/ http://www.netflix.com/

blhack 17y ago

Who cares about the plot? It's beautiful. Amazingly, wonderfully, brilliantly beautiful. There is a wonderfully realistic, fully immersive, 3D environment right outside my office window right now, but I don't care. Want to know why? Because the plot is boring. I get out of my chair, walk to my car, go to the gas-station, and then go home to play with my dog and go to bed. The end. People go to movies because it is better than reality. Perhaps those who never leave their couch are wowed by images that look exactly like reality, but Avatar's visual effects wowed me only in a "well, it looks like they finally did it properly!" sense. No offense to anyone who worked on this film, it is a staggering technical achievement, but it doesn't really do anything that reality doesn't. /this might be due to my being a bit bitter that I can't see the 3D version due to my non-stereoscopic vision :(.

elblanco 17y ago
> but it doesn't really do anything that reality doesn't. Apparently you live on Pandora, where you can look at the office window right now and see the alien planet with floating mountains, giant six legged carnivores, pack hunters, bio-luminescent forests, two kinds (count them 2) of flying dragons and 12 foot tall blue skinned people with tails and braids with autonomous nerve endings at the end that can mentally bond with all of the above (sans the flying mountains).
- theli0nheart 17y ago
  Awesome.

sever 17y ago

The point is that the movie could have been so much more. The visuals are incredible, I think the best ever done so far, that's what makes it all the more unfortunate that the story was weak. With a strong plot, and the visuals this movie could have been over the top, goosebumps incredible. Instead I went out of the movie theater sad that all this incredible artistry was wasted and what a shame that was. I think Cameron lost it. The story was a nothing, and there were a few lines in there so bad, you don't even often see their equal on terrible sitcom TV. They were cheesy video game cut scene bad, only the godhead visual prevented me from wincing. I'd still recommend for folks to see this movie, it is incredible, but what a shame...