9 ms·

As a engineering student I have been very frustrated about this. One of the main reasons why I think engineering is failing in the west is the deep separation

by 1971genocide 11y ago

As a engineering student I have been very frustrated about this. One of the main reasons why I think engineering is failing in the west is the deep separation between the math and actual production. Software is an exception and this is why the US churns out world class software engineers. But I think rather and throwing more billions into teachers and saddling students with more debt it would be be much better if the mid-level technical jobs existed to allow mid-level engineers to learn from experience rather than excel purely symbolicly ( in maths )

happyscrappy 11y ago
>engineering is failing in the west Designed in California, Assembled in China, soon to be Vietnam or Malaysia.
- hkmurakami 11y ago
  And before China, it was Designed in California, Manufactured in Japan. After SE Asia it will be Africa. Then who knows?
  - kalleboo 11y ago
    > And before China, it was Designed in California, Manufactured in Japan. Was it? I wasn't around for that time, but I was under the impression that in the pre-glory days of "Made in Japan" it was still designed in Japan by Japanese companies (which is how Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic got their starts). They didn't have the global manufacturing outsourcing we have today with "Made in China". Whereas these days, any startup Chinese brands have to compete with international brands who can still enjoy the same cost of Chinese manufacturing
    - hkmurakami 11y ago
      There was a lot of this in the PC hardware component / peripheral space in the 70's and 80's. Probably not so much for end consumer devices, like you say.
  - sliverstorm 11y ago
    If the pattern keeps repeating, I speculate the end result is more consistent quality of living around the globe, labor costs would be a much less important differentiator. Country after country that used to be suitable for cheap manufacture has, as it grew & developed, become less suitable than some other country. In the end, quality of living will increase world-wide until the cost of manufacture is roughly equal in all locations. This is perturbed by a variety of costs that make it more expensive to pay an Elbonian worker $10/hr than an American worker $10/hr if the goods are to be sold in America- but it could close the gap dramatically.
PhantomGremlin 11y ago
deep separation between the math and actual production. This has nothing to do with engineering and everything to do with management. Take Tektronix, for example. They used to have world class engineering and manufacturing in Oregon. Then they got bought by Danaher, a conglomerate that exists solely to acquire and "monetize" companies, while not investing sufficiently in future R&D. Now Tek is a hollow shell of itself. The remaining engineers travel often to China, where all the production is. But a lot of non-technical people got very very rich in the process. So I guess it's a good thing. Right? But it's also a yin and yang thing. Tek wouldn't have been scooped up by Danaher if they were able to succeed on their own. But maybe they would be even worse off if Danaher hadn't bought them? That's the eternal lifecycle of most companies. Scrappy startup -> successful -> ossified -> bankrupt or merged away.
- CountSessine 11y ago
  That's the eternal lifecycle of most companies Is that an eternal lifecycle? Or is it merely one of the unintended consequences of a largely unregulated financial market that doesn't have the patience for research and development? I keep thinking about acquisitions like Tek's and the incredible value that was accumulated over decades that's being destroyed in favour of a quick return and I keep thinking that 'market efficiency' doesn't lead to a lot of wealth. Unless you manage a hedge-fund, I guess. Even then, though - they'll only be able to pick the meat off of the bones of western industry for so long - sooner or later the corpse will be picked clean and all of that wealth and technology will have migrated east. And no one in the east is so tolerant of that sort of selfish wealth-destruction and corporate vandalism as we are.
  - tsotha 11y ago
    The financial markets have patience for R&D that actually pays off. Look at how much money companies like IBM and Intel are spending on shrinking design rules. Heck, IBM does a lot of research in a lot of areas.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    The large unregulated financial market has plenty of patience for R&D by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Uber, etc. They just don't have patience for R&D by Danaher. Assuming you were investing, would you personally be more likely to park your money in Danaher or Uber?
Taniwha 11y ago
I call BS - I design in the west and manufacture in Schenzhen (and Shanghai) - you're only separated from the manufacturing if you refuse to get a passport and travel - it's a small world these days and the people a day away are friendly The big truth here is in one of the last paragraphs of the article - Shenzhen (and China) is going through an accelerated industrial revolution - they're making many of the same mistakes the west made (don't forget the killer smogs of the 50s in London), and learning from them - Shenzhen has simply banned the 2-strokes scooters ubiquitous throughout Asia, replacing them with electric ones, petrol powered taxis incur a 3 kwai tax over the blue electric ones ....
- hkmurakami 11y ago
  To be fair that's often not a viable expense on a student budget.
  - Taniwha 11y ago
    compared to what you'd likely spend for a build in the US vs in China you'll still likely come out ahead, I'd argue that if you can't afford to go you likely can't afford your project
    - hkmurakami 11y ago
      Isn't the contention "it would have been possibly affordable / reasonable if mid-tier manufacturing were still locally available in the United States"?
      - eitally 11y ago
        It is, you just don't know about it I guess. I spent the past 15 years working for Sanmina, another global high-tech manufacturer like the aforementioned Flextronics. Just within the US we had facilities in CA (Fremont, Livermore, Newark, Costa Mesa), AL (Huntsville, Guntersville), NH (Manchester, Derry), WA (Bothell), SC (Fort Mill), NC (RTP), TX (Allen, Carrollton, El Paso), CO (Louisville, Colorado Springs), AZ (Phoenix), UT (SLC) and more. These are factories building everything from simple injection molded plastics or PCBAs to stuff like MRI machines and military avionics. In the San Jose area we helped do DFM on Bloom Boxes for Bloom Energy, and designed & build massive storage arrays for Netflix. Just because most people don't know about US manufacturing doesn't mean it's not still around, and in fact has hit recent peaks as the economy has recovered after the global recession (we'll see what happens now that economies are wavering again).
danvoell 11y ago
"mid-level technical" - This is the position that has disappeared most rapidly in the last 20 years. It has been replaced by software in CNC machinery. The present and future mostly will rely on high-level engineers that are able to manage a large amount of machines and non-technical machine operators.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>One of the main reasons why I think engineering is failing in the west is the deep separation between the math and actual production. It's not that. It's just not economically viable to manufacture in the west when western currencies are kept artificially high, Asian currencies are kept artificially low and Asian manufacturers face less stringent environmental and labor regulations.
jlynn 11y ago
Get a job or internship at the right company. I work for a hardware startup and recently spent two weeks overseas at our manufacturing facility along with two of our interns. The opportunities are out there if you're looking for them.

happyscrappy 11y ago

>engineering is failing in the west Designed in California, Assembled in China, soon to be Vietnam or Malaysia.

hkmurakami 11y ago
And before China, it was Designed in California, Manufactured in Japan. After SE Asia it will be Africa. Then who knows?
- kalleboo 11y ago
  > And before China, it was Designed in California, Manufactured in Japan. Was it? I wasn't around for that time, but I was under the impression that in the pre-glory days of "Made in Japan" it was still designed in Japan by Japanese companies (which is how Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic got their starts). They didn't have the global manufacturing outsourcing we have today with "Made in China". Whereas these days, any startup Chinese brands have to compete with international brands who can still enjoy the same cost of Chinese manufacturing
  - hkmurakami 11y ago
    There was a lot of this in the PC hardware component / peripheral space in the 70's and 80's. Probably not so much for end consumer devices, like you say.
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  If the pattern keeps repeating, I speculate the end result is more consistent quality of living around the globe, labor costs would be a much less important differentiator. Country after country that used to be suitable for cheap manufacture has, as it grew & developed, become less suitable than some other country. In the end, quality of living will increase world-wide until the cost of manufacture is roughly equal in all locations. This is perturbed by a variety of costs that make it more expensive to pay an Elbonian worker $10/hr than an American worker $10/hr if the goods are to be sold in America- but it could close the gap dramatically.

PhantomGremlin 11y ago

deep separation between the math and actual production. This has nothing to do with engineering and everything to do with management. Take Tektronix, for example. They used to have world class engineering and manufacturing in Oregon. Then they got bought by Danaher, a conglomerate that exists solely to acquire and "monetize" companies, while not investing sufficiently in future R&D. Now Tek is a hollow shell of itself. The remaining engineers travel often to China, where all the production is. But a lot of non-technical people got very very rich in the process. So I guess it's a good thing. Right? But it's also a yin and yang thing. Tek wouldn't have been scooped up by Danaher if they were able to succeed on their own. But maybe they would be even worse off if Danaher hadn't bought them? That's the eternal lifecycle of most companies. Scrappy startup -> successful -> ossified -> bankrupt or merged away.

CountSessine 11y ago
That's the eternal lifecycle of most companies Is that an eternal lifecycle? Or is it merely one of the unintended consequences of a largely unregulated financial market that doesn't have the patience for research and development? I keep thinking about acquisitions like Tek's and the incredible value that was accumulated over decades that's being destroyed in favour of a quick return and I keep thinking that 'market efficiency' doesn't lead to a lot of wealth. Unless you manage a hedge-fund, I guess. Even then, though - they'll only be able to pick the meat off of the bones of western industry for so long - sooner or later the corpse will be picked clean and all of that wealth and technology will have migrated east. And no one in the east is so tolerant of that sort of selfish wealth-destruction and corporate vandalism as we are.
- tsotha 11y ago
  The financial markets have patience for R&D that actually pays off. Look at how much money companies like IBM and Intel are spending on shrinking design rules. Heck, IBM does a lot of research in a lot of areas.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  The large unregulated financial market has plenty of patience for R&D by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Uber, etc. They just don't have patience for R&D by Danaher. Assuming you were investing, would you personally be more likely to park your money in Danaher or Uber?

Taniwha 11y ago

I call BS - I design in the west and manufacture in Schenzhen (and Shanghai) - you're only separated from the manufacturing if you refuse to get a passport and travel - it's a small world these days and the people a day away are friendly The big truth here is in one of the last paragraphs of the article - Shenzhen (and China) is going through an accelerated industrial revolution - they're making many of the same mistakes the west made (don't forget the killer smogs of the 50s in London), and learning from them - Shenzhen has simply banned the 2-strokes scooters ubiquitous throughout Asia, replacing them with electric ones, petrol powered taxis incur a 3 kwai tax over the blue electric ones ....

hkmurakami 11y ago
To be fair that's often not a viable expense on a student budget.
- Taniwha 11y ago
  compared to what you'd likely spend for a build in the US vs in China you'll still likely come out ahead, I'd argue that if you can't afford to go you likely can't afford your project
  - hkmurakami 11y ago
    Isn't the contention "it would have been possibly affordable / reasonable if mid-tier manufacturing were still locally available in the United States"?
    - eitally 11y ago
      It is, you just don't know about it I guess. I spent the past 15 years working for Sanmina, another global high-tech manufacturer like the aforementioned Flextronics. Just within the US we had facilities in CA (Fremont, Livermore, Newark, Costa Mesa), AL (Huntsville, Guntersville), NH (Manchester, Derry), WA (Bothell), SC (Fort Mill), NC (RTP), TX (Allen, Carrollton, El Paso), CO (Louisville, Colorado Springs), AZ (Phoenix), UT (SLC) and more. These are factories building everything from simple injection molded plastics or PCBAs to stuff like MRI machines and military avionics. In the San Jose area we helped do DFM on Bloom Boxes for Bloom Energy, and designed & build massive storage arrays for Netflix. Just because most people don't know about US manufacturing doesn't mean it's not still around, and in fact has hit recent peaks as the economy has recovered after the global recession (we'll see what happens now that economies are wavering again).

danvoell 11y ago

"mid-level technical" - This is the position that has disappeared most rapidly in the last 20 years. It has been replaced by software in CNC machinery. The present and future mostly will rely on high-level engineers that are able to manage a large amount of machines and non-technical machine operators.

crdoconnor 11y ago

>One of the main reasons why I think engineering is failing in the west is the deep separation between the math and actual production. It's not that. It's just not economically viable to manufacture in the west when western currencies are kept artificially high, Asian currencies are kept artificially low and Asian manufacturers face less stringent environmental and labor regulations.

jlynn 11y ago

Get a job or internship at the right company. I work for a hardware startup and recently spent two weeks overseas at our manufacturing facility along with two of our interns. The opportunities are out there if you're looking for them.