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We're moving you from a level 6 engineer to a level 3 engineer, with reduced pay and benefits. We don't think you're contributing at the level we hired you at.

We're moving you from a level 6 engineer to a level 3 engineer, with reduced pay and benefits. We don't think you're contributing at the level we hired you at. Your job has also been relocated to ISIS-controlled territory in Syria. And you need to learn COBOL. And your job now requires 85% time travel on small, yellow, inflatable boats that leak somewhat.

imgabe 11y ago
Eh, paid time to learn COBOL, then leave for a cushy job maintaining legacy bank systems. OSHA will definitely have some questions about why programming for a web retailer requires travelling on leaky inflatable boats.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  OSHA. In Syria. Right.
  - imgabe 11y ago
    I ignored that part because it's plainly hyperbole. There are no commercial flights to Syria at this time, as there generally aren't to any active war zone. Even if a company wanted to send an employee there, they couldn't. Plus it's not going to look good when you bring up the email ordering you to go to a war zone where the company has no business interests or even an active office during your wrongful termination suit. So, obviously, that was an exaggeration for effect, yes? If you want to keep coming up with excuses for why employees need to put up with bullshit from companies, by all means, knock yourself out. The more suckers there are taking the shit jobs, the less competition there is for the better jobs.
    - VikingCoder 11y ago
      > Even if a company wanted to send an employee there, they couldn't. You don't need a commercial flight to go somewhere. Don't fight something you think is hyperbole with hyperbole. > If you want to keep coming up with excuses for why employees need to put up with bullshit from companies Slow down. I'm documenting the kind of BS companies pull. I'm not endorsing it. My mom was essentially fired for having cancer. It was done very creatively and legally.
      - imgabe 11y ago
        > You don't need a commercial flight to go somewhere. Don't fight something you think is hyperbole with hyperbole. Are you seriously contending that sending an employee into an active war zone is something an actual employer [1] is actually capable of doing? Since you're documenting BS companies pull, care to provide any documentation of something like that actually happening? Whatever Amazon is like, I'm pretty sure they're not going to go to the trouble of flying someone halfway around the world and arranging transport into a war zone just because they went home at 5pm. Yes, companies pull all kinds of shady shit, but they're not gods. There are laws, and failing that, public shaming. If you act powerless, you'll be powerless. [1] Aside from the military, or a defense contractor, or other company where employees would be aware that such an assignment is a possible requirement of their employment.
        VikingCoder 11y ago
        A transfer to Oakland is just about as bad. And yes, my mother, while going through cancer treatment, was pretty much powerless, regardless of how she wanted to act.
        imgabe 11y ago
        I'm sorry for what your mother and the rest of your family went through. I have no doubt that the company acted unfairly. Encouraging an attitude of fatalism and "they'll screw you no matter what!" is only going to exacerbate the problem. Companies will only continue to get away with things like that if everyone just accepts them as a fact of life.
        VikingCoder 11y ago
        Want to hear something weird? I actually think it should be really easy for a company to fire someone, for whatever reason they want to. And I think we should have social services that make you not fear for your life to be unemployed. Free education. Free health care. Basic Income on top of that. But maybe I'm just completely nuts.
yarrel 11y ago
Hello constructive dismissal!
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  imgabe implied it's difficult for a company to fire someone. I'm responding that it's trivially easy for a company to make your life a living hell, and make you want to quit.
  - imgabe 11y ago
    Yes and constructive dismissal is a legal concept enabling an employee who experienced something like that to sue and receive compensation for unfair dismissal. Companies generally don't like to be sued and don't put themselves in positions where they could be sued.
    - VikingCoder 11y ago
      Ah, got it. I thought you were accusing me of dismissing imgabe's argument without giving it proper constructive attention. I don't really buy the argument that companies don't know how to get around this.
    - hwstar 11y ago
      A lot of companies make you sign an agreement to arbitrate instead of going through the courts. That would mitigate the risk for them that they would get sued. Arbitrators don't use juries. Hopefully the California legislature passes AB 465 and bans pre-dispute arbitration clauses. Companies need to fear being sued in the courts if they misbehave, and should not be able to keep the disputes private and out of the court records.
venomsnake 11y ago
So I both have opportunity to code and kill people from ISIS? And that is somehow a demotion?

imgabe 11y ago

Eh, paid time to learn COBOL, then leave for a cushy job maintaining legacy bank systems. OSHA will definitely have some questions about why programming for a web retailer requires travelling on leaky inflatable boats.

VikingCoder 11y ago
OSHA. In Syria. Right.
- imgabe 11y ago
  I ignored that part because it's plainly hyperbole. There are no commercial flights to Syria at this time, as there generally aren't to any active war zone. Even if a company wanted to send an employee there, they couldn't. Plus it's not going to look good when you bring up the email ordering you to go to a war zone where the company has no business interests or even an active office during your wrongful termination suit. So, obviously, that was an exaggeration for effect, yes? If you want to keep coming up with excuses for why employees need to put up with bullshit from companies, by all means, knock yourself out. The more suckers there are taking the shit jobs, the less competition there is for the better jobs.
  - VikingCoder 11y ago
    > Even if a company wanted to send an employee there, they couldn't. You don't need a commercial flight to go somewhere. Don't fight something you think is hyperbole with hyperbole. > If you want to keep coming up with excuses for why employees need to put up with bullshit from companies Slow down. I'm documenting the kind of BS companies pull. I'm not endorsing it. My mom was essentially fired for having cancer. It was done very creatively and legally.
    - imgabe 11y ago
      > You don't need a commercial flight to go somewhere. Don't fight something you think is hyperbole with hyperbole. Are you seriously contending that sending an employee into an active war zone is something an actual employer [1] is actually capable of doing? Since you're documenting BS companies pull, care to provide any documentation of something like that actually happening? Whatever Amazon is like, I'm pretty sure they're not going to go to the trouble of flying someone halfway around the world and arranging transport into a war zone just because they went home at 5pm. Yes, companies pull all kinds of shady shit, but they're not gods. There are laws, and failing that, public shaming. If you act powerless, you'll be powerless. [1] Aside from the military, or a defense contractor, or other company where employees would be aware that such an assignment is a possible requirement of their employment.
      - VikingCoder 11y ago
        A transfer to Oakland is just about as bad. And yes, my mother, while going through cancer treatment, was pretty much powerless, regardless of how she wanted to act.
        imgabe 11y ago
        I'm sorry for what your mother and the rest of your family went through. I have no doubt that the company acted unfairly. Encouraging an attitude of fatalism and "they'll screw you no matter what!" is only going to exacerbate the problem. Companies will only continue to get away with things like that if everyone just accepts them as a fact of life.
        VikingCoder 11y ago
        Want to hear something weird? I actually think it should be really easy for a company to fire someone, for whatever reason they want to. And I think we should have social services that make you not fear for your life to be unemployed. Free education. Free health care. Basic Income on top of that. But maybe I'm just completely nuts.

yarrel 11y ago

Hello constructive dismissal!

VikingCoder 11y ago
imgabe implied it's difficult for a company to fire someone. I'm responding that it's trivially easy for a company to make your life a living hell, and make you want to quit.
- imgabe 11y ago
  Yes and constructive dismissal is a legal concept enabling an employee who experienced something like that to sue and receive compensation for unfair dismissal. Companies generally don't like to be sued and don't put themselves in positions where they could be sued.
  - VikingCoder 11y ago
    Ah, got it. I thought you were accusing me of dismissing imgabe's argument without giving it proper constructive attention. I don't really buy the argument that companies don't know how to get around this.
  - hwstar 11y ago
    A lot of companies make you sign an agreement to arbitrate instead of going through the courts. That would mitigate the risk for them that they would get sued. Arbitrators don't use juries. Hopefully the California legislature passes AB 465 and bans pre-dispute arbitration clauses. Companies need to fear being sued in the courts if they misbehave, and should not be able to keep the disputes private and out of the court records.

venomsnake 11y ago

So I both have opportunity to code and kill people from ISIS? And that is somehow a demotion?