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"when the top 20% are taking over 80% of the money" Who exactly are the rich "taking" money from in general? Creating wealth is not a zero-sum game. If you ins

by chwolfe 17y ago

"when the top 20% are taking over 80% of the money" Who exactly are the rich "taking" money from in general? Creating wealth is not a zero-sum game. If you insert the word "earning" in the above phrase, the argument you present loses some luster.

jmillikin 17y ago
If I "earn" a dollar, where did that dollar come from? If my company paid me, they are poorer by $1. If the government paid me, the aggregate citizenry is poorer by $1. If the government printed it, the total value of US dollars in circulation has decreased by $1. Technically, activities like mining precious metals or gems could count as creating wealth, but obviously basing an economy on an arbitrarily-priced material as silver or gold is a bad idea. Anybody who believes gold isn't a fiat currency is mad. The most successful way that governments seem to have found to tax the wealthy is inflation, which is a "tax" on liquid currency. But there's ways for the wealthy to avoid inflation which aren't available to the working class, such as buying various foreign currencies. A direct tax, rather than "stealth" taxes, is a healthier and more sustainable choice.
- ewanmcteagle 17y ago
  I'm sorry but this is terribly thoughtless. When you are given something the giver may be impoverished (ignoring any pleasure they get from giving) but when you provide a service or sell something both sides are happy. One receives the money they want more than the good/service and the other receives the good/service they want more than the money. Both are enriched. Without understanding this miracle you cannot understand many things about the world. This is why we don't still live in caves and spend all our time gathering food. Gold is not wealth. It is only because it can be exchanged for a good or service that can be consumed that it has any value.
- jbarham 17y ago
  Given your extreme naivety about the nature of the money supply, I highly recommend that you take an introductory course on macro-economics. And where is it written that the "working class" aren't allowed to buy foreign currencies? Given that I'll be flying out of the US tomorrow on holiday I was hoping I'd be able to buy some foreign currencies at the airport...
- zargon 17y ago
  The definition of fiat currency is the currency that a government mandates for payment of taxes and which courts require you to accept as payment of debts. What country are you thinking of where gold is used by fiat?
- nostrademons 17y ago
  Money is not wealth. Things that people want is wealth. If your company paid you $1, it's presumably because you gave them something that they want more than $1, most likely your labor.
- trominos 17y ago
  > If my company paid me, they are poorer by $1. Yes. But presumably when you earned that dollar you somehow contributed to making something that somebody wants. Now that thing is slightly more common, so it should be slightly easier to obtain than it was. Thus you've given a tiny little bit of value to everybody who participates in the same economy that you do. When millions of people do this we get modern civilization.
- jonp 17y ago
  See "The pie fallacy" in http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html.
crc32 17y ago
In the real world, the rich don't always get rich by "creating wealth". Taxation can be a counterbalance to inefficiencies in imperfect markets, and an expression of the morals and ethics of the majority.
gaius 17y ago
The BBC reported recently that the top 30% of UK taxpayers (about 15% of the population) are net contributors, everyone else gets more out of the system than they put in. Weirdly the answer is always "make those who contribute the most contribute more" and not "make some of the rest pull their weight".

by chwolfe 17y ago

jmillikin 17y ago

If I "earn" a dollar, where did that dollar come from? If my company paid me, they are poorer by $1. If the government paid me, the aggregate citizenry is poorer by $1. If the government printed it, the total value of US dollars in circulation has decreased by $1. Technically, activities like mining precious metals or gems could count as creating wealth, but obviously basing an economy on an arbitrarily-priced material as silver or gold is a bad idea. Anybody who believes gold isn't a fiat currency is mad. The most successful way that governments seem to have found to tax the wealthy is inflation, which is a "tax" on liquid currency. But there's ways for the wealthy to avoid inflation which aren't available to the working class, such as buying various foreign currencies. A direct tax, rather than "stealth" taxes, is a healthier and more sustainable choice.

ewanmcteagle 17y ago
I'm sorry but this is terribly thoughtless. When you are given something the giver may be impoverished (ignoring any pleasure they get from giving) but when you provide a service or sell something both sides are happy. One receives the money they want more than the good/service and the other receives the good/service they want more than the money. Both are enriched. Without understanding this miracle you cannot understand many things about the world. This is why we don't still live in caves and spend all our time gathering food. Gold is not wealth. It is only because it can be exchanged for a good or service that can be consumed that it has any value.
jbarham 17y ago
Given your extreme naivety about the nature of the money supply, I highly recommend that you take an introductory course on macro-economics. And where is it written that the "working class" aren't allowed to buy foreign currencies? Given that I'll be flying out of the US tomorrow on holiday I was hoping I'd be able to buy some foreign currencies at the airport...
zargon 17y ago
The definition of fiat currency is the currency that a government mandates for payment of taxes and which courts require you to accept as payment of debts. What country are you thinking of where gold is used by fiat?
nostrademons 17y ago
Money is not wealth. Things that people want is wealth. If your company paid you $1, it's presumably because you gave them something that they want more than $1, most likely your labor.
trominos 17y ago
> If my company paid me, they are poorer by $1. Yes. But presumably when you earned that dollar you somehow contributed to making something that somebody wants. Now that thing is slightly more common, so it should be slightly easier to obtain than it was. Thus you've given a tiny little bit of value to everybody who participates in the same economy that you do. When millions of people do this we get modern civilization.
jonp 17y ago
See "The pie fallacy" in http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html.

crc32 17y ago

In the real world, the rich don't always get rich by "creating wealth". Taxation can be a counterbalance to inefficiencies in imperfect markets, and an expression of the morals and ethics of the majority.

gaius 17y ago

The BBC reported recently that the top 30% of UK taxpayers (about 15% of the population) are net contributors, everyone else gets more out of the system than they put in. Weirdly the answer is always "make those who contribute the most contribute more" and not "make some of the rest pull their weight".