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CERN did a grown-up negotiation with the vendor to come to an agreement. The student then violated that agreement. If I get caught taking a $5 item from a stor

CERN did a grown-up negotiation with the vendor to come to an agreement. The student then violated that agreement. If I get caught taking a $5 item from a store in my pocket, should I just be able to pay the $5 and say "hey, we're all even now."?

tomp 11y ago
Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. No harm done, literally.
- danielweber 11y ago
  Solve for the equilibrium.
iofj 11y ago
1) CERN also did a grown-up negotiation to have the person work for them, and therefore carry out his function as the legal entity "CERN", not as himself. Any action he did in his function, is legally executed by CERN, not by the employee. That of course includes installing software he needs for his job, and certainly covers installing any software CERN directed him to install. This works both ways : if he invents/builds/... something and CERN sells the fruits of his labor (or otherwise profits from it), he doesn't have a claim to single cent of that profit. If he does something as part of his job that damages CERN, the most he can lose is his job. If he unintentionally blows up CERN headquarters, CERN quite literally has to pay him his wages for doing so, medical expenses, ... the company would even have to replace his cell phone if it broke during the explosion and pay to have his pants cleaned afterwards. The unintentional part is only required because, if intentional, it would be a criminal act (and this intent needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not merely indicated). Even if he failed to follow safety procedures while doing so, it was the company's responsibility to correct him, and the consequences for failing to do so are theirs. 2) stealing is a criminal act, and governed by an ENTIRELY different part of the law. The two cannot be compared. This case would be governed by employment law and commercial law, stealing is covered by criminal law. But your example has another flaw: if you can even vaguely reasonably claim you took the item by accident, yes you should be able to pay the $5 and be even. No criminal court judge is going to convict anyone who non-violently took a $5 item, and offered to pay the damage in full the second he was confronted. This would not be reasonable.
- danielweber 11y ago
  The student is judgment-proof and the school would be unwise to pursue any claim against him
- gutnor 11y ago
  IANAL but your company is not shielding you from legal responsibility of the illegal actions you take, even if you are required by your employee to engage in those activities. That is a warning to be careful I heard was given to sysadmin. Even if their boss require them to steal personal information or "find" software, they are legally responsible for doing it. There is a point area somewhere between murder and failure to protect confidential information at which the company takes over responsibility, but that's not a blanket protection as financial obligations.
  - iofj 11y ago
    Depends what you mean by "illegal", there are over two dozen main kinds of illegal. As a massive simplification anything not found in the "criminal law" or "employment law" books your employer covers while you're working (and in some states while you're doing things you're only doing because you work, e.g. drive to work). So, very generally speaking, anything you can't get arrested for is covered by your employer.

tomp 11y ago

Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. No harm done, literally.

danielweber 11y ago
Solve for the equilibrium.

iofj 11y ago

1) CERN also did a grown-up negotiation to have the person work for them, and therefore carry out his function as the legal entity "CERN", not as himself. Any action he did in his function, is legally executed by CERN, not by the employee. That of course includes installing software he needs for his job, and certainly covers installing any software CERN directed him to install. This works both ways : if he invents/builds/... something and CERN sells the fruits of his labor (or otherwise profits from it), he doesn't have a claim to single cent of that profit. If he does something as part of his job that damages CERN, the most he can lose is his job. If he unintentionally blows up CERN headquarters, CERN quite literally has to pay him his wages for doing so, medical expenses, ... the company would even have to replace his cell phone if it broke during the explosion and pay to have his pants cleaned afterwards. The unintentional part is only required because, if intentional, it would be a criminal act (and this intent needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not merely indicated). Even if he failed to follow safety procedures while doing so, it was the company's responsibility to correct him, and the consequences for failing to do so are theirs. 2) stealing is a criminal act, and governed by an ENTIRELY different part of the law. The two cannot be compared. This case would be governed by employment law and commercial law, stealing is covered by criminal law. But your example has another flaw: if you can even vaguely reasonably claim you took the item by accident, yes you should be able to pay the $5 and be even. No criminal court judge is going to convict anyone who non-violently took a $5 item, and offered to pay the damage in full the second he was confronted. This would not be reasonable.

danielweber 11y ago
The student is judgment-proof and the school would be unwise to pursue any claim against him
gutnor 11y ago
IANAL but your company is not shielding you from legal responsibility of the illegal actions you take, even if you are required by your employee to engage in those activities. That is a warning to be careful I heard was given to sysadmin. Even if their boss require them to steal personal information or "find" software, they are legally responsible for doing it. There is a point area somewhere between murder and failure to protect confidential information at which the company takes over responsibility, but that's not a blanket protection as financial obligations.
- iofj 11y ago
  Depends what you mean by "illegal", there are over two dozen main kinds of illegal. As a massive simplification anything not found in the "criminal law" or "employment law" books your employer covers while you're working (and in some states while you're doing things you're only doing because you work, e.g. drive to work). So, very generally speaking, anything you can't get arrested for is covered by your employer.