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The email from Jeff to his employees was impeccably unsatisfactory. It was a sheer display of ignorance and rejection towards everything quoted and said. Howeve

by apexkid 11y ago

The email from Jeff to his employees was impeccably unsatisfactory. It was a sheer display of ignorance and rejection towards everything quoted and said. However, no matter how much Jeff sticks to that attitude, it wouldn't change the reality that Amazon is the most customer centric company on earth and the most employee apathetic company on earth as well. It reflects in major workplace elements like health schemes, holiday schemes (though employee have official over 30 holidays they are not allowed to spend it without facing low performance review), food benefits (specially in offices outside USA) etc. Though Amazon claims that the leadership principle "Frugality" stands for minimizing waste and not cheapness, one can't dismiss the latter definition.

neals 11y ago
> the most employee apathetic company on earth Ever been abroad? Bangladesh and China are lovely this time of the year.
- x404 11y ago
  right
- apexkid 11y ago
  Thanks for not saying that its better than a brothel of Bangladesh and China. It was clear in what context I have written my comment. Your argument can be qualified as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
  - saiya-jin 11y ago
    well, his (valid) point is, that arguably most of this planet inahbitants would do anything possible to get a job like that, for even half the income. which is true. just we in IT and developers in particular are in these days amazingly spoiled, full of this feeling that we are some engineer++, more clever, and generally better than say construction engineers (or any other for that matter). back home we have a saying "pride precedes the fall", and honestly, software development is in dire need for some proper disruption (ie jobs amount and salaries take 50% cut). once you step outside of your little bubble and look how hard it is for real people out there to earn their crappy salaries, come back and we can talk like adults.
    - RogerL 11y ago
      It's okay to be a sociopath to people so long as others have it worse? No, sorry. Nothing requires Amazon to behave this way, and it is foolish besides - if you burn through people you are are basically training people up who then walk away and work for your competition. By having them work 80+ hours you are getting less actual work out of them then 40 hours. You are spending more on health care because this sort of environment causes stress. Etc. We ain't going to shut up and take it just because there are worse things out there.
    - carrotleads 11y ago
      really... if anything SDE are underpaid compared to the skills/competency they give in return.. We don't tell other professionals to take a pay cut cause a whole bunch of people are doing it tough...
    - willismichael 11y ago
      I find it interesting that one one hand we have people talking about how software developers are entitled cry-babies, and then there are others who say that software developers are horrible at negotiating salary and benefits, ending up woefully under-compensated for the value that we bring to employers. So which is it?
    - wfo 11y ago
      With this attitude, so long as there are people worse off you never have a right to complain; if more people believed the way you do we would all race to the bottom into functional slavery, because, hey, some people are actual slaves, or dying on the street, or permanently disabled who am I to complain about working for 3 cents a year? Some people would kill for that job. Luckily almost nobody outside of weird extremist libertarian communities on the internet that you find odd pockets of on HN and such believe this.
    - pharrington 11y ago
      "well, his (valid) point is, that arguably most of this planet inahbitants would do anything possible to get a job like that, for even half the income." Until they get the job, realize that pain is everywhere, and pray their children won't have to go through the same thing. Destroying your employees doesn't suddenly become a sustainable way of running the human race just because you're destroying them in front of a computer screen instead of in a rice field.
- dominotw 11y ago
  I am pretty sure this "employer" would trounce Jeff Bezos http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/world/outlaw-ocean-thailand-fishing-sea-slaves-pets.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/world/outlaw-ocean-thailan...
celeduc 11y ago
I love how Bezos didn't address the reports of his own famously bad behavior, which sets the tone for the entire company. Or maybe he's under investigation by the Amazon HR department right now?
enraged_camel 11y ago
>>The email from Jeff to his employees was impeccably unsatisfactory. It was a sheer display of ignorance and rejection towards everything quoted and said. Duh? He was simply defending the company against potential HR lawsuits. You can't really expect him to say, "yes I know we treat people like shit, and the criticisms are valid, but..."
- apexkid 11y ago
  I expected a more positive re-enforcement in form of something like "we shall investigate the mentioned cases by NYtimes and try to reach out to those people..." Or "even if its all false, lets take a step to change such perception of Amazon if it exists.."
RogerL 11y ago
The whole "this feedback is nonsense, I won't listen to it; oh, and please give me feedback, I take it seriously" thing was pretty absurd. Plus, he essentially blamed the people for being in this situation. I'd be splitting blood if I worked there and got that letter.

by apexkid 11y ago

neals 11y ago

> the most employee apathetic company on earth Ever been abroad? Bangladesh and China are lovely this time of the year.

x404 11y ago
right
apexkid 11y ago
Thanks for not saying that its better than a brothel of Bangladesh and China. It was clear in what context I have written my comment. Your argument can be qualified as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  well, his (valid) point is, that arguably most of this planet inahbitants would do anything possible to get a job like that, for even half the income. which is true. just we in IT and developers in particular are in these days amazingly spoiled, full of this feeling that we are some engineer++, more clever, and generally better than say construction engineers (or any other for that matter). back home we have a saying "pride precedes the fall", and honestly, software development is in dire need for some proper disruption (ie jobs amount and salaries take 50% cut). once you step outside of your little bubble and look how hard it is for real people out there to earn their crappy salaries, come back and we can talk like adults.
  - RogerL 11y ago
    It's okay to be a sociopath to people so long as others have it worse? No, sorry. Nothing requires Amazon to behave this way, and it is foolish besides - if you burn through people you are are basically training people up who then walk away and work for your competition. By having them work 80+ hours you are getting less actual work out of them then 40 hours. You are spending more on health care because this sort of environment causes stress. Etc. We ain't going to shut up and take it just because there are worse things out there.
  - carrotleads 11y ago
    really... if anything SDE are underpaid compared to the skills/competency they give in return.. We don't tell other professionals to take a pay cut cause a whole bunch of people are doing it tough...
  - willismichael 11y ago
    I find it interesting that one one hand we have people talking about how software developers are entitled cry-babies, and then there are others who say that software developers are horrible at negotiating salary and benefits, ending up woefully under-compensated for the value that we bring to employers. So which is it?
  - wfo 11y ago
    With this attitude, so long as there are people worse off you never have a right to complain; if more people believed the way you do we would all race to the bottom into functional slavery, because, hey, some people are actual slaves, or dying on the street, or permanently disabled who am I to complain about working for 3 cents a year? Some people would kill for that job. Luckily almost nobody outside of weird extremist libertarian communities on the internet that you find odd pockets of on HN and such believe this.
  - pharrington 11y ago
    "well, his (valid) point is, that arguably most of this planet inahbitants would do anything possible to get a job like that, for even half the income." Until they get the job, realize that pain is everywhere, and pray their children won't have to go through the same thing. Destroying your employees doesn't suddenly become a sustainable way of running the human race just because you're destroying them in front of a computer screen instead of in a rice field.
dominotw 11y ago
I am pretty sure this "employer" would trounce Jeff Bezos http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/world/outlaw-ocean-thailand-fishing-sea-slaves-pets.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/world/outlaw-ocean-thailan...

celeduc 11y ago

I love how Bezos didn't address the reports of his own famously bad behavior, which sets the tone for the entire company. Or maybe he's under investigation by the Amazon HR department right now?

enraged_camel 11y ago

>>The email from Jeff to his employees was impeccably unsatisfactory. It was a sheer display of ignorance and rejection towards everything quoted and said. Duh? He was simply defending the company against potential HR lawsuits. You can't really expect him to say, "yes I know we treat people like shit, and the criticisms are valid, but..."

apexkid 11y ago
I expected a more positive re-enforcement in form of something like "we shall investigate the mentioned cases by NYtimes and try to reach out to those people..." Or "even if its all false, lets take a step to change such perception of Amazon if it exists.."

RogerL 11y ago

The whole "this feedback is nonsense, I won't listen to it; oh, and please give me feedback, I take it seriously" thing was pretty absurd. Plus, he essentially blamed the people for being in this situation. I'd be splitting blood if I worked there and got that letter.