4 ms·

There's so many thing I feel when i read this: 1st: We're all in IT have been on call at some given time , and it sucks , we all know this (since I'm not on my

There's so many thing I feel when i read this: 1st: We're all in IT have been on call at some given time , and it sucks , we all know this (since I'm not on my 20s anymore i always ask in job interviews if i have to be on call.) 2nd: Man that sucks ... i don't know how this person has given it more than 6 months of his life , just move on and get a different job if you dislike it. 3rd: Amazon is like any other big company , I've read similar stories about google and MS , i wish the would pipe down and think smartly , proper hand offs to people that are on call etc etc, there's no reason why someone have to be called in the night and unable to take holidays ... come on , nobody is SO important as we want to think.

cmdkeen 11y ago
> just move on and get a different job if you dislike it Because they tie you in with money - your signing bonus and relocation expenses have to be partially repaid if you leave within the first two years. An interesting question on the "what if there was a war and no-one came?" is what would happen if Amazon could no longer hire the monstrous number of high calibre new entrants it needs every year. Stories like this are effectively huge advertising campaigns for every other tech company.
- lrvick 11y ago
  I see people use this excuse all the time when I challenge them to quit a job they hate and get one they love. If you are good at what you do, another company will buy you out of any financial strings a current employer has on you. Let's assume the worst though and that by leaving you just eat the money. So what? You can always make more money, but you can't get years of your life back. I find people in this industry are so often socalized into protecting a commodity they can easily replace (money) by giving up one they can't (enjoyed time)
  - pjc50 11y ago
    by leaving you just eat the money This requires that you have a good line of credit or savings that you can use to buy food, pay mortgage, etc. Most people don't have that.
    - lrvick 11y ago
      So? You dont have to pay them back immediatly. I have walked away with neither credit or savings before. Thrown away stock and titles. There is never a good reason to let someone abuse you and hold you hostage from living a life you enjoy. I swear this is like listening to people in abusive relationships with tunnel vision. "If we break up I will be poor!" The world didn't end any of the times I have walked away. Little contract work and a few interviews can solve a wealth of financial problems in short order.
      - pjc50 11y ago
        The world didn't end any of the times I have walked away Not for you, but it certainly does happen. If you look at it from the other way round, quite often when you find a middleclass person who's ended up homeless or an alcoholic or suicidal it started with losing their job. Yes, it's an abusive employer/employee relationship. But there's never a bright line crossed between "ordinarily bad" and "abusive".
      - RogerL 11y ago
        Well, good for you. People have mortgages, they have children, and so on. Life is not as neat and clean as HN likes to make it. People are not robots, and do not always make perfectly rational decisions. Sometimes the 'easier' decision to stay at a company where you have reasonable assurance of continued employment and stability. I put easier in quotes because I recognize the truth of what you say, but in general this ability to just flippantly change jobs is a rare thing. No one was doing that in 2001, and people remember. You can jump to a start up, the bankers or somebody makes a bad risk decision, the economy is in turmoil, and in 8 months you are in foreclosure and trying to figure out how to cloth and feed your kids. Meanwhile your mother is ailing and needs your help, and your wife's father is wandering into traffic due to the Alzheimers. Silly, weak humans, right? We HN readers are above all that. Nothing bad will ever happen to us, so just throw caution to the wind.
        lrvick 11y ago
        Quitting before having a new source of income is not something everyone can do. I do acknowledge this. Most of the people I talk to in these situations however are not shopping around. Acting like they are trapped or a helpless victim. If someone is not happy at a job they owe it to themselves, in spite of any drama going on in their lives, to make time for interviews until they get the sucky job problem solved. By no means blow off family in need etc, but making time to get into a happy work environment could mean less stress, enough or more money, and a much easier time dealing with the difficult parts of life one can't change.
- HarryHirsch 11y ago
  An interesting question on the "what if there was a war and no-one came?" is what would happen if Amazon could no longer hire the monstrous number of high calibre new entrants it needs every year. It's the wrong question to ask, I think. Those joining Amazon or any other top company do so through internship track or personal network. Anyone who complains about burnout and getting worked to death really has no reason to complain. They did get to see the insides of Amazon while working there as an intern, and if they didn't see it their friends did. The question is really: why do people keep thinking they can outrun the bear even though everyone else they can see cannot?
wobbleblob 11y ago
From talking with people who work or worked for the companies you mention: their complaint is never about being on call or about the work hours, but about the stack ranking system. This means that every manager has to rank the people that report to her in order from best to worst, where best must get a promotion and worst must be sidetracked or fired, even if the whole team objectively ranked from 'excellent' to 'superstar'. This means that you may have to fire someone who performed only 'excellently', and it also makes your direct coworkers competitors, because it's in everyone's interest to be higher in the stack than you, and if someone else on your team does well, this may be a threat to you.

cmdkeen 11y ago

> just move on and get a different job if you dislike it Because they tie you in with money - your signing bonus and relocation expenses have to be partially repaid if you leave within the first two years. An interesting question on the "what if there was a war and no-one came?" is what would happen if Amazon could no longer hire the monstrous number of high calibre new entrants it needs every year. Stories like this are effectively huge advertising campaigns for every other tech company.

lrvick 11y ago
I see people use this excuse all the time when I challenge them to quit a job they hate and get one they love. If you are good at what you do, another company will buy you out of any financial strings a current employer has on you. Let's assume the worst though and that by leaving you just eat the money. So what? You can always make more money, but you can't get years of your life back. I find people in this industry are so often socalized into protecting a commodity they can easily replace (money) by giving up one they can't (enjoyed time)
- pjc50 11y ago
  by leaving you just eat the money This requires that you have a good line of credit or savings that you can use to buy food, pay mortgage, etc. Most people don't have that.
  - lrvick 11y ago
    So? You dont have to pay them back immediatly. I have walked away with neither credit or savings before. Thrown away stock and titles. There is never a good reason to let someone abuse you and hold you hostage from living a life you enjoy. I swear this is like listening to people in abusive relationships with tunnel vision. "If we break up I will be poor!" The world didn't end any of the times I have walked away. Little contract work and a few interviews can solve a wealth of financial problems in short order.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      The world didn't end any of the times I have walked away Not for you, but it certainly does happen. If you look at it from the other way round, quite often when you find a middleclass person who's ended up homeless or an alcoholic or suicidal it started with losing their job. Yes, it's an abusive employer/employee relationship. But there's never a bright line crossed between "ordinarily bad" and "abusive".
    - RogerL 11y ago
      Well, good for you. People have mortgages, they have children, and so on. Life is not as neat and clean as HN likes to make it. People are not robots, and do not always make perfectly rational decisions. Sometimes the 'easier' decision to stay at a company where you have reasonable assurance of continued employment and stability. I put easier in quotes because I recognize the truth of what you say, but in general this ability to just flippantly change jobs is a rare thing. No one was doing that in 2001, and people remember. You can jump to a start up, the bankers or somebody makes a bad risk decision, the economy is in turmoil, and in 8 months you are in foreclosure and trying to figure out how to cloth and feed your kids. Meanwhile your mother is ailing and needs your help, and your wife's father is wandering into traffic due to the Alzheimers. Silly, weak humans, right? We HN readers are above all that. Nothing bad will ever happen to us, so just throw caution to the wind.
      - lrvick 11y ago
        Quitting before having a new source of income is not something everyone can do. I do acknowledge this. Most of the people I talk to in these situations however are not shopping around. Acting like they are trapped or a helpless victim. If someone is not happy at a job they owe it to themselves, in spite of any drama going on in their lives, to make time for interviews until they get the sucky job problem solved. By no means blow off family in need etc, but making time to get into a happy work environment could mean less stress, enough or more money, and a much easier time dealing with the difficult parts of life one can't change.
HarryHirsch 11y ago
An interesting question on the "what if there was a war and no-one came?" is what would happen if Amazon could no longer hire the monstrous number of high calibre new entrants it needs every year. It's the wrong question to ask, I think. Those joining Amazon or any other top company do so through internship track or personal network. Anyone who complains about burnout and getting worked to death really has no reason to complain. They did get to see the insides of Amazon while working there as an intern, and if they didn't see it their friends did. The question is really: why do people keep thinking they can outrun the bear even though everyone else they can see cannot?

wobbleblob 11y ago

From talking with people who work or worked for the companies you mention: their complaint is never about being on call or about the work hours, but about the stack ranking system. This means that every manager has to rank the people that report to her in order from best to worst, where best must get a promotion and worst must be sidetracked or fired, even if the whole team objectively ranked from 'excellent' to 'superstar'. This means that you may have to fire someone who performed only 'excellently', and it also makes your direct coworkers competitors, because it's in everyone's interest to be higher in the stack than you, and if someone else on your team does well, this may be a threat to you.