4 ms·

What does have basis in law is that, while on unlicensed spectrum, you can't willfully mess with other people's transmissions. Period, point blank, end of discu

What does have basis in law is that, while on unlicensed spectrum, you can't willfully mess with other people's transmissions. Period, point blank, end of discussion. They were doing this. They violated the law. They got fined. This is not up for debate. - On your property? Doesn't matter. Still illegal. - They're using your SSID? Doesn't matter. Still illegal. - You entered into a contract to block all other signals? Doesn't matter, you entered into a contract to do something expressly illegal. - Too many radios will make the local spectrum unusable? Doesn't matter, the band is unlicensed. Still illegal. We can talk all day about the should haves and the would haves, but the practical and legal facts of this case are quite clear.

notacoward 11y ago
> You entered into a contract to block all other signals? Doesn't matter, you entered into a contract to do something expressly illegal. Incorrect. There are many things that are illegal without consent, but legal with it. Sex, for example. In this case, as soon as you enter into an appropriately worded contract, that de-auth packet stops being interference and starts being an agreed-to part of that contract. Therefore it's none of the FCC's business. It might be the subject of a civil suit, but that's a different matter. That's why I've said repeatedly that Smart City's misdeed (and Marriott's before them) was not the mere sending of de-auth packets. Condemning de-auth packets is like condemning screwdrivers. The real problem is that they did not obtain consent for that use of the tool. They could have made that part of the convention registration, and they would have been OK (though they would almost certainly have faced an outcry). It's no different than a company forbidding the same thing within their corporate HQ building, which almost everybody here seems to believe is OK. I see a lot of people throwing words like "legitimate" and "illegitimate" around today, but nobody seems to have a realistic definition handy. I find it amazing that so many here want the government making technical distinctions for us, which they never do well, instead of relying on the simple notion of consent (or lack thereof) between parties.
- FireBeyond 11y ago
  The law says 'x'. As enforced by the FCC. Your contract as a private party, with another private party, does not absolve either of you from your obligations under law. The FCC is a third party to this contract, and your 'sex' example is irrelevant (on many different levels).
  - notacoward 11y ago
    So what is your solution, other than hoping the FCC will get the definitions right to allow the practices that are convenient for you and disallow those that are inconvenient - and not overreach into still more areas of communications, and not be generally corrupt, and so on? If rigorously applied, the precedent set here WOULD apply to corporate networks doing the same thing, with the FCC involved in deciding which rogue APs are or are not "legitimate" threats to security. Oh boy, they'll sure get that one right! As I said, consent is at least a clear and enforceable standard, plus it gets the FCC out of everyone's boardrooms and bedrooms.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Thankfully, the law is not C++ and we have this thing called "judgement". This is unlawful interference, pure and simple.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  >In this case, as soon as you enter into an appropriately worded contract, that de-auth packet stops being interference and starts being an agreed-to part of that contract. Please point to the specific portion of case law or FCC law that shares this definition, because as far as I can tell, it doesn't exist. I'm not sure why you insist on muddying what is a pretty clear law and also a pretty clear decision based on that law. The "permission" point you're stating has no basis in law. You cannot willfully interfere with another user's lawful transmission on an unlicensed band. It is that simple. What they could do, and probably should have done, is post notices saying that unauthorized wifi is against the venue rules and will lead to ejection, and then go around with a laptop, find the people, and boot them out. That would have been perfectly okay and perfectly legal.

notacoward 11y ago

> You entered into a contract to block all other signals? Doesn't matter, you entered into a contract to do something expressly illegal. Incorrect. There are many things that are illegal without consent, but legal with it. Sex, for example. In this case, as soon as you enter into an appropriately worded contract, that de-auth packet stops being interference and starts being an agreed-to part of that contract. Therefore it's none of the FCC's business. It might be the subject of a civil suit, but that's a different matter. That's why I've said repeatedly that Smart City's misdeed (and Marriott's before them) was not the mere sending of de-auth packets. Condemning de-auth packets is like condemning screwdrivers. The real problem is that they did not obtain consent for that use of the tool. They could have made that part of the convention registration, and they would have been OK (though they would almost certainly have faced an outcry). It's no different than a company forbidding the same thing within their corporate HQ building, which almost everybody here seems to believe is OK. I see a lot of people throwing words like "legitimate" and "illegitimate" around today, but nobody seems to have a realistic definition handy. I find it amazing that so many here want the government making technical distinctions for us, which they never do well, instead of relying on the simple notion of consent (or lack thereof) between parties.

FireBeyond 11y ago
The law says 'x'. As enforced by the FCC. Your contract as a private party, with another private party, does not absolve either of you from your obligations under law. The FCC is a third party to this contract, and your 'sex' example is irrelevant (on many different levels).
- notacoward 11y ago
  So what is your solution, other than hoping the FCC will get the definitions right to allow the practices that are convenient for you and disallow those that are inconvenient - and not overreach into still more areas of communications, and not be generally corrupt, and so on? If rigorously applied, the precedent set here WOULD apply to corporate networks doing the same thing, with the FCC involved in deciding which rogue APs are or are not "legitimate" threats to security. Oh boy, they'll sure get that one right! As I said, consent is at least a clear and enforceable standard, plus it gets the FCC out of everyone's boardrooms and bedrooms.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    Thankfully, the law is not C++ and we have this thing called "judgement". This is unlawful interference, pure and simple.
Karunamon 11y ago
>In this case, as soon as you enter into an appropriately worded contract, that de-auth packet stops being interference and starts being an agreed-to part of that contract. Please point to the specific portion of case law or FCC law that shares this definition, because as far as I can tell, it doesn't exist. I'm not sure why you insist on muddying what is a pretty clear law and also a pretty clear decision based on that law. The "permission" point you're stating has no basis in law. You cannot willfully interfere with another user's lawful transmission on an unlicensed band. It is that simple. What they could do, and probably should have done, is post notices saying that unauthorized wifi is against the venue rules and will lead to ejection, and then go around with a laptop, find the people, and boot them out. That would have been perfectly okay and perfectly legal.