19 ms·

(Disclaimer: I work for the same former-division-of-Google-and-now-Alphabet-subsidiary that built this, though I don't work on OnHub.) I think you need an acco

by endtime 11y ago

(Disclaimer: I work for the same former-division-of-Google-and-now-Alphabet-subsidiary that built this, though I don't work on OnHub.) I think you need an account for cloud-based configuration, credential sharing, etc. Maybe it's not for everyone, but I think it makes sense as a product. I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting.

foobarqux 11y ago
What division is that?
- Shooti 11y ago
  Fiber was part of "Access and Energy" led by Craig Barratt. Has a spot on their super out of date management page: https://www.google.co.uk/about/company/facts/management/ https://www.google.co.uk/about/company/facts/management/
chm 11y ago
I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting. You might be right but it's really hard for me to agree with you. It could be optional, but it appears not to be.
- skj 11y ago
  I believe the post was not disputing the existence of the requirement, but the idea that it was to improve ad targeting.
  - chm 11y ago
    I understand, and I still think an ad company has every interest to improve its ad targeting. What is so controversial about that?
andresmanz 11y ago
Thanks, but shouldn't these features be optional? I still don't get why I need a Google Account.
- sjs382 11y ago
  These features are the value proposition. If you don't want them, a different router might actually be better for you.
  - ebiester 11y ago
    I thought the value proposition was a better designed antenna and intelligent on-board bandwidth prioritization.
  - ksk 11y ago
    >These features are the value proposition Asking for an explanation or complaining or criticizing a product is good and should be encouraged. Companies should expect negative feedback if they release products that consumers do not like. In fact this helps the Companies too in making products that people want. I don't quite see why you're telling people to "take it or leave it". That applies to every single product in existence, and I would hazard a guess that most people here are aware of it.
    - sjs382 11y ago
      I'm not saying that it's "take it or leave it". I'm saying that if you're unwilling to use a Google account for this, then (in all likelihood) it probably isn't the best product for you. The same way that if you're unwilling to use an Amazon (or Apple) account, the Kindle (or iPhone) isn't going to be the best product for you.
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  The router is cloud configured from your mobile device, that is how it works. Some cloud services for the device are actually optional. But AFAIK you still need a Google Account. Here is the help page on the topic of data collection and privacy: https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6246642?hl=en&ref_topic=6246470&vid=1-635755221172142181-18127440739027856314 https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6246642?hl=en&ref_to... And see also, how to set a whole bunch of privacy settings: https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845?vid=1-635755221172142181-18127440739027856314#change https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845?vid=1-635755... Disclaimer: I work on the project. I am not a spokesperson or legal or marketing, or anything like that.
ocdtrekkie 11y ago
Their privacy policy seems open ended enough to indicate otherwise. Using this router allows Google to collect a HECK of a lot of data about your Internet usage.
- magicalist 11y ago
  No it doesn't? https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845 https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845
  - warkdarrior 11y ago
    For now
    - magicalist 11y ago
      > For now Sure! What else doesn't it do "for now"? You should make a list. Subliminal messaging out of the speaker, ad hoc mesh for coordinating kill-bots... More seriously, one nice feature of that page: If changes are made to this article (which should be rare), a revision history will be available on this page to let you know what has changed and why. All privacy policies should have this.
  - ocdtrekkie 11y ago
    That IS a lot of data!
  - vmateixeira 11y ago
    I like the "for example.." present in most sentences.
    - aiiane 11y ago
      Attempting to list out each and every individual instance where a piece of data might be used does not a good privacy policy make.
  - ksk 11y ago
mtgx 11y ago
Cloud-based configuration? Isn't that virtually always a terrible idea security wise for a router? Is it another form of "lawful intercept"?
- mentat 11y ago
  Depends on if you think un-updated, bad PRNG devices are better.
  - falcolas 11y ago
    This isn't an "either-or" situation. You can have an auto-updating router which doesn't depend on configuring via a third party service.
    - aiiane 11y ago
      Not really. If the router auto-updates, it has to get that update from somewhere. If anything, being able to push firmware is more powerful than being able to push configuration.
otis_inf 11y ago
> I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting. Ad delivery networks, and google is one of the biggest, have one core business: delivering ads. Everything is setup to make that as big and as solid as possible. Whatever it takes (and we all know how far ad delivery networks will go: almost infinitely far). Now they ship a piece of hardware, require signing up with an account, and it's not for prolonging / helping their core business? If you believe that, I have a piece of land I want to sell to you, special price.
- patrickyeon 11y ago
  I'm not going to say you're wrong, but Google has an interest in maximizing the number of people who have consistent, reliable, enjoyable internet experiences. If this hardware does not collect data to help them target ads (and that may very well be the case), but causes more eyeballs to spend more time online where they will find Google-hosted ads, it helps their core business AND the customer.
  - chronic40 11y ago
    Just like Facebook's Internet.org is not intended to make Facebook money via ads, right?
- orahlu 11y ago
  > Ad delivery networks, and google is one of the biggest, have one core business: delivering ads It's made by an alphabet subsidiary, not google. Google are the bad ad-selling guys, they're the good guys. 100% true!
- Killswitch 11y ago
  I agree! - Typed on Google Chrome on my Android Phone, connected to my Google Fiber network via my onHub router.
- endtime 11y ago
  Believe it or not there are a lot of teams at Google that don't think about ads. I worked on Geo for over three years and had plenty of discussions about how various things should work, and ads never came up. (There was one case where we pushed pointless login requirements on the user, gating Zagat reviews behind a G+ login, and I (along with many others) argued against it.) Like I said, I'm not on the OnHub team, but knowing how these sorts of things work my educated guess is that they did some market research and found that the best way to have the best UX for the median user was to do cloud-based configuration. On top of which, the privacy policy (linked elsewhere in the comments)_ makes it clear that your actual web browsing data isn't tracked. At a strategic level, if we make wifi better and people use the internet more, sure, we can show them more ads. Maybe that and/or other strategic concerns are part of why the project got funded in the first place. But the people actually designing the features are probably a disjoint set of people from the ones thinking about that kind of strategy.
stephengoodwin 11y ago
I suppose a workaround could be just an OnHub specific Google Account.
- hobarrera 11y ago
  How is creating a Google Account a workaround to creating a Google Account?
  - andybak 11y ago
    How is creating a throwaway Google Account anything other than a minor inconvenience?
RobLach 11y ago
"I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting." I find that a highly optimistic statement given advertising is pretty much Google's only significantly profitable product and is supporting the entire conglomerate.
- FlaceBook 11y ago
  Obviously you haven't heard. Google isn't in it to make money. They just want to "help people". I saw it on reddit, so it must be true.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- jfoster 11y ago
  It doesn't seem very plausible that Google made OnHub just to sell lots of them at the $200 price point. I think the official stance on this will be that they want to make the internet work better and be easier to setup. I do think that's plausible. Plus, unless Google can snoop into HTTPS connections, how would this help them with ad targeting? (since HTTP will be phased out within the next few years)
  - jellicle 11y ago
    Haven't the NSA revelations of the past few years driven home the fact that metadata is extraordinarily valuable and informative?
  - citrin_ru 11y ago
    > unless Google can snoop into HTTPS connections, how would this help them with ad targeting Hostname from TLS SNI is also useful for AD targeting.
Schwolop 11y ago
If you're able to tell, which division is that? Is this really inner-Google product development, or mostly/partial/somewhat outsourced via a prod-dev consultancy?
- dcre 11y ago
  Pretty sure they mean Nest.
wbillingsley 11y ago
Not directly, but they would certainly have included it as an entry point to bring users into Google's account-driven services, and to make a Google account "stickier". That indirectly does increase ad revenue and targeting, and you can be sure that over time different people in the company will keep having the "bright idea" that if they correlate OnHub data with data from Analytics, DNS, and location services, they can improve ad-targeting by 0.x%, leading to $Y million in additional revenue, and within a few years it will be.

by endtime 11y ago

foobarqux 11y ago

What division is that?

Shooti 11y ago
Fiber was part of "Access and Energy" led by Craig Barratt. Has a spot on their super out of date management page: https://www.google.co.uk/about/company/facts/management/ https://www.google.co.uk/about/company/facts/management/

chm 11y ago

I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting. You might be right but it's really hard for me to agree with you. It could be optional, but it appears not to be.

skj 11y ago
I believe the post was not disputing the existence of the requirement, but the idea that it was to improve ad targeting.
- chm 11y ago
  I understand, and I still think an ad company has every interest to improve its ad targeting. What is so controversial about that?

andresmanz 11y ago

Thanks, but shouldn't these features be optional? I still don't get why I need a Google Account.

sjs382 11y ago
These features are the value proposition. If you don't want them, a different router might actually be better for you.
- ebiester 11y ago
  I thought the value proposition was a better designed antenna and intelligent on-board bandwidth prioritization.
- ksk 11y ago
  >These features are the value proposition Asking for an explanation or complaining or criticizing a product is good and should be encouraged. Companies should expect negative feedback if they release products that consumers do not like. In fact this helps the Companies too in making products that people want. I don't quite see why you're telling people to "take it or leave it". That applies to every single product in existence, and I would hazard a guess that most people here are aware of it.
  - sjs382 11y ago
    I'm not saying that it's "take it or leave it". I'm saying that if you're unwilling to use a Google account for this, then (in all likelihood) it probably isn't the best product for you. The same way that if you're unwilling to use an Amazon (or Apple) account, the Kindle (or iPhone) isn't going to be the best product for you.
cmrdporcupine 11y ago
The router is cloud configured from your mobile device, that is how it works. Some cloud services for the device are actually optional. But AFAIK you still need a Google Account. Here is the help page on the topic of data collection and privacy: https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6246642?hl=en&ref_topic=6246470&vid=1-635755221172142181-18127440739027856314 https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6246642?hl=en&ref_to... And see also, how to set a whole bunch of privacy settings: https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845?vid=1-635755221172142181-18127440739027856314#change https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845?vid=1-635755... Disclaimer: I work on the project. I am not a spokesperson or legal or marketing, or anything like that.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago

Their privacy policy seems open ended enough to indicate otherwise. Using this router allows Google to collect a HECK of a lot of data about your Internet usage.

magicalist 11y ago
No it doesn't? https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845 https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845
- warkdarrior 11y ago
  For now
  - magicalist 11y ago
    > For now Sure! What else doesn't it do "for now"? You should make a list. Subliminal messaging out of the speaker, ad hoc mesh for coordinating kill-bots... More seriously, one nice feature of that page: If changes are made to this article (which should be rare), a revision history will be available on this page to let you know what has changed and why. All privacy policies should have this.
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  That IS a lot of data!
- vmateixeira 11y ago
  I like the "for example.." present in most sentences.
  - aiiane 11y ago
    Attempting to list out each and every individual instance where a piece of data might be used does not a good privacy policy make.
- ksk 11y ago

mtgx 11y ago

Cloud-based configuration? Isn't that virtually always a terrible idea security wise for a router? Is it another form of "lawful intercept"?

mentat 11y ago
Depends on if you think un-updated, bad PRNG devices are better.
- falcolas 11y ago
  This isn't an "either-or" situation. You can have an auto-updating router which doesn't depend on configuring via a third party service.
  - aiiane 11y ago
    Not really. If the router auto-updates, it has to get that update from somewhere. If anything, being able to push firmware is more powerful than being able to push configuration.

otis_inf 11y ago

> I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting. Ad delivery networks, and google is one of the biggest, have one core business: delivering ads. Everything is setup to make that as big and as solid as possible. Whatever it takes (and we all know how far ad delivery networks will go: almost infinitely far). Now they ship a piece of hardware, require signing up with an account, and it's not for prolonging / helping their core business? If you believe that, I have a piece of land I want to sell to you, special price.

patrickyeon 11y ago
I'm not going to say you're wrong, but Google has an interest in maximizing the number of people who have consistent, reliable, enjoyable internet experiences. If this hardware does not collect data to help them target ads (and that may very well be the case), but causes more eyeballs to spend more time online where they will find Google-hosted ads, it helps their core business AND the customer.
- chronic40 11y ago
  Just like Facebook's Internet.org is not intended to make Facebook money via ads, right?
orahlu 11y ago
> Ad delivery networks, and google is one of the biggest, have one core business: delivering ads It's made by an alphabet subsidiary, not google. Google are the bad ad-selling guys, they're the good guys. 100% true!
Killswitch 11y ago
I agree! - Typed on Google Chrome on my Android Phone, connected to my Google Fiber network via my onHub router.
endtime 11y ago
Believe it or not there are a lot of teams at Google that don't think about ads. I worked on Geo for over three years and had plenty of discussions about how various things should work, and ads never came up. (There was one case where we pushed pointless login requirements on the user, gating Zagat reviews behind a G+ login, and I (along with many others) argued against it.) Like I said, I'm not on the OnHub team, but knowing how these sorts of things work my educated guess is that they did some market research and found that the best way to have the best UX for the median user was to do cloud-based configuration. On top of which, the privacy policy (linked elsewhere in the comments)_ makes it clear that your actual web browsing data isn't tracked. At a strategic level, if we make wifi better and people use the internet more, sure, we can show them more ads. Maybe that and/or other strategic concerns are part of why the project got funded in the first place. But the people actually designing the features are probably a disjoint set of people from the ones thinking about that kind of strategy.

stephengoodwin 11y ago

I suppose a workaround could be just an OnHub specific Google Account.

hobarrera 11y ago
How is creating a Google Account a workaround to creating a Google Account?
- andybak 11y ago
  How is creating a throwaway Google Account anything other than a minor inconvenience?

RobLach 11y ago

"I highly doubt they added a Google account requirement to improve ad targeting." I find that a highly optimistic statement given advertising is pretty much Google's only significantly profitable product and is supporting the entire conglomerate.

FlaceBook 11y ago
Obviously you haven't heard. Google isn't in it to make money. They just want to "help people". I saw it on reddit, so it must be true.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jfoster 11y ago
It doesn't seem very plausible that Google made OnHub just to sell lots of them at the $200 price point. I think the official stance on this will be that they want to make the internet work better and be easier to setup. I do think that's plausible. Plus, unless Google can snoop into HTTPS connections, how would this help them with ad targeting? (since HTTP will be phased out within the next few years)
- jellicle 11y ago
  Haven't the NSA revelations of the past few years driven home the fact that metadata is extraordinarily valuable and informative?
- citrin_ru 11y ago
  > unless Google can snoop into HTTPS connections, how would this help them with ad targeting Hostname from TLS SNI is also useful for AD targeting.

Schwolop 11y ago

If you're able to tell, which division is that? Is this really inner-Google product development, or mostly/partial/somewhat outsourced via a prod-dev consultancy?

dcre 11y ago
Pretty sure they mean Nest.

wbillingsley 11y ago

Not directly, but they would certainly have included it as an entry point to bring users into Google's account-driven services, and to make a Google account "stickier". That indirectly does increase ad revenue and targeting, and you can be sure that over time different people in the company will keep having the "bright idea" that if they correlate OnHub data with data from Analytics, DNS, and location services, they can improve ad-targeting by 0.x%, leading to $Y million in additional revenue, and within a few years it will be.