5 ms·

Kernel developers don't use and IDE for the Linux kernel, and they are arguably some of the best programmers in the world. Great programmers use vim or emacs, b

by jrbrtsn 11y ago

Kernel developers don't use and IDE for the Linux kernel, and they are arguably some of the best programmers in the world. Great programmers use vim or emacs, because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display. Besides, any screen real estate used for "interpretive" purposes is just an annoyance.

ch4s3 11y ago
Are they the best developers, and if so how do you measure that? > Great programmers use vim or emacs This another form of No True Scotsman, and not a valid argument. > because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display How do you know, and how do you measure this? Surely, you would admit that Vi and Emacs are better than pen and paper, or punch cards, right? So does it not follow that Vi and Emacs could be improved upon? Or are they the pinnacle of inputting instructions into a computer? If they are which one is better? Why? How do we measure that?
- pekk 11y ago
  The steering wheel could be improved upon in some theoretical sense, but the chances are that any new car steered by, say, an iPad is much worse and definitely isn't going to be used in races any time soon.
techpeace 11y ago
> Great programmers use vim or emacs These kind of generalizations aren't helpful, simply because they aren't true. Are vi and emacs still going to be in wide use 500 years from now? Likely not. Then it stands to reason that there might be a way to improve upon them. I use an IDE because I don't have to sink an inordinate amount of time into customizing my environment, since that activity doesn't deliver any value to the folks that pay me. I'd prefer to let a really smart team of engineers set those tools up for me. I do not, however, assume that anybody that doesn't use an IDE must be inferior.
- pekk 11y ago
  Is Visual Studio going to be in use 500 years from now? Light Table? No. The people who made Visual Studio have not made something that is smarter for everyone's work. Maybe your work just doesn't require any customization. That doesn't mean nobody should ever want customization.
  - techpeace 11y ago
    > That doesn't mean nobody should ever want customization. I fail to see where I made that claim. IDE's are also customizable - I would argue that they are, in fact, much more customizable than either vim or emacs, simply because of the breadth of features one may customize. I was addressing the parent's claim that "great programmers use vim or emacs."
coldtea 11y ago
>Kernel developers don't use and IDE for the Linux kernel, and they are arguably some of the best programmers in the world. Well, even better programmers like Alan Kay designed and used complete image-based GUI environments like Smalltalk. And Rich Hickey used IntelliJ to write Clojure. So? >Great programmers use vim or emacs, because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display. How do you measure this? Is this Computer SCIENCE or merely metaphysical beliefs?
zardo 11y ago
Great programmers use vim or emacs, because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display. Maybe if IDE's were better at helping people see code the way a great programmer does, more people would be great programmers.
jeanyang 11y ago
This sounds like a good example of stereotypes turning into technical truth. https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/c-is-manly-python-is-for-n00bs-how-false-stereotypes-turn-into-technical-truths https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/c-is-manly-python-is-for...

by jrbrtsn 11y ago

ch4s3 11y ago

Are they the best developers, and if so how do you measure that? > Great programmers use vim or emacs This another form of No True Scotsman, and not a valid argument. > because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display How do you know, and how do you measure this? Surely, you would admit that Vi and Emacs are better than pen and paper, or punch cards, right? So does it not follow that Vi and Emacs could be improved upon? Or are they the pinnacle of inputting instructions into a computer? If they are which one is better? Why? How do we measure that?

pekk 11y ago
The steering wheel could be improved upon in some theoretical sense, but the chances are that any new car steered by, say, an iPad is much worse and definitely isn't going to be used in races any time soon.

techpeace 11y ago

> Great programmers use vim or emacs These kind of generalizations aren't helpful, simply because they aren't true. Are vi and emacs still going to be in wide use 500 years from now? Likely not. Then it stands to reason that there might be a way to improve upon them. I use an IDE because I don't have to sink an inordinate amount of time into customizing my environment, since that activity doesn't deliver any value to the folks that pay me. I'd prefer to let a really smart team of engineers set those tools up for me. I do not, however, assume that anybody that doesn't use an IDE must be inferior.

pekk 11y ago
Is Visual Studio going to be in use 500 years from now? Light Table? No. The people who made Visual Studio have not made something that is smarter for everyone's work. Maybe your work just doesn't require any customization. That doesn't mean nobody should ever want customization.
- techpeace 11y ago
  > That doesn't mean nobody should ever want customization. I fail to see where I made that claim. IDE's are also customizable - I would argue that they are, in fact, much more customizable than either vim or emacs, simply because of the breadth of features one may customize. I was addressing the parent's claim that "great programmers use vim or emacs."

coldtea 11y ago

>Kernel developers don't use and IDE for the Linux kernel, and they are arguably some of the best programmers in the world. Well, even better programmers like Alan Kay designed and used complete image-based GUI environments like Smalltalk. And Rich Hickey used IntelliJ to write Clojure. So? >Great programmers use vim or emacs, because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display. How do you measure this? Is this Computer SCIENCE or merely metaphysical beliefs?

zardo 11y ago

Great programmers use vim or emacs, because the imagery in their mind is far more powerful than anything an IDE could display. Maybe if IDE's were better at helping people see code the way a great programmer does, more people would be great programmers.

jeanyang 11y ago

This sounds like a good example of stereotypes turning into technical truth. https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/c-is-manly-python-is-for-n00bs-how-false-stereotypes-turn-into-technical-truths https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/c-is-manly-python-is-for...