5 ms·

Why secret? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear in a democracy. Turns out people have to be transparent to Governments, but Governments what

Why secret? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear in a democracy. Turns out people have to be transparent to Governments, but Governments what to be opaque. This is not a democracy.

bro-stick 11y ago
TTIP would be the EU & US standardizing plutocracy interoperability. Perhaps there are some proposed rollbacks of agriculture, public health and safety regulations on both sides of the Atlantic that would upset people: GMOs, labeling and ag inspection. Because TTIP's public goal is claimed to make trade "easier" by having more similar, common regulations for US products sold in the EU and vice-versa.
- acqq 11y ago
  "Easier" as finally cracking the EU resistance to GM, which has such a long history and bits such as: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jun/24/gm.food http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jun/24/gm.food "Mr Bush's comments came barely a month after his administration took Europe's ban on GM crops to the World Trade Organisation, saying the moratorium was a barrier to trade." Just a little later: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jul/02/gm.food2 http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jul/02/gm.food2 "The European parliament today lifted the ban on genetically modified foods, instead choosing to impose a strict labelling regime that could stave off a trade war with the US."
  - bro-stick 11y ago
    I'm split on GMO, having friends in biotech plant biological sciences. I think there are real fears of dependence on too few crops and unforeseen effects on other organisms. Some other fears may not be borne out. The main objection is that it's gambling with our health and the planet if not done with great care. Perhaps GM can be done limited, done carefully and gradually but I also know that China and Korea will do whatever they want.
tptacek 11y ago
The treaties themselves are public, and are voted on. The interim negotiating documents are closely-guarded secrets, because trade negotiations will require give-to-get concessions from some industries, who would lobby aggressively to avoid being singled out.
- acqq 11y ago
  > The treaties themselves are public Really? Only you claim that. Can you post the link please?
  - medecau 11y ago
    http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/documents-and-events/index_en.htm#_documents http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/documents-and... (Video autoplays)
    - acqq 11y ago
      If I understand correctly that's just what Wikipedia explains as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Invest... "After a proposed draft was leaked in March 2014,[5] the European Commission launched a public consultation on a limited set of clauses and in January 2015 published parts of an overview.[6]" Otherwise you would already earn 100000 EUR from Wikileaks by posting that link?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    You're getting two different sets of documents confused. The negotiating documents --- the early drafts of the treaty, which are not binding --- are certainly not public. They are closely guarded secrets; that secrecy exists to protect the "integrity" of the negotiating process, for a very narrow definition of "integrity" that mostly means "minimized direct lobbying". But the treaties themselves have to be ratified to become binding law. They are published, for public review, before that happens. Wikileaks is effectively asking for people to leak the negotiating documents.
cies 11y ago
> This is not a democracy. Old news. But still glad with every person who comes to this conclusion. I think we need a law that makes any secret agreement an "unlawful" agreement that we don't have to abide by.
dageroth 11y ago
There is a good podcast by planetmoney explaining it. Mostly it is because there are so many industries and interests touched that regardless of what you negotiate, there will be public outrage and pressure on the negotiators which make it much harder to reach an agreement. If that is the case though, I am not sure whether an agreement must be reached... Anyhow, interesting podcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episode-635-trade-deal-confidential http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episo...

Why secret? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear in a democracy. Turns out people have to be transparent to Governments, but Governments what to be opaque. This is not a democracy.

bro-stick 11y ago

TTIP would be the EU & US standardizing plutocracy interoperability. Perhaps there are some proposed rollbacks of agriculture, public health and safety regulations on both sides of the Atlantic that would upset people: GMOs, labeling and ag inspection. Because TTIP's public goal is claimed to make trade "easier" by having more similar, common regulations for US products sold in the EU and vice-versa.

acqq 11y ago
"Easier" as finally cracking the EU resistance to GM, which has such a long history and bits such as: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jun/24/gm.food http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jun/24/gm.food "Mr Bush's comments came barely a month after his administration took Europe's ban on GM crops to the World Trade Organisation, saying the moratorium was a barrier to trade." Just a little later: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jul/02/gm.food2 http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/jul/02/gm.food2 "The European parliament today lifted the ban on genetically modified foods, instead choosing to impose a strict labelling regime that could stave off a trade war with the US."
- bro-stick 11y ago
  I'm split on GMO, having friends in biotech plant biological sciences. I think there are real fears of dependence on too few crops and unforeseen effects on other organisms. Some other fears may not be borne out. The main objection is that it's gambling with our health and the planet if not done with great care. Perhaps GM can be done limited, done carefully and gradually but I also know that China and Korea will do whatever they want.

tptacek 11y ago

The treaties themselves are public, and are voted on. The interim negotiating documents are closely-guarded secrets, because trade negotiations will require give-to-get concessions from some industries, who would lobby aggressively to avoid being singled out.

acqq 11y ago
> The treaties themselves are public Really? Only you claim that. Can you post the link please?
- medecau 11y ago
  http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/documents-and-events/index_en.htm#_documents http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/documents-and... (Video autoplays)
  - acqq 11y ago
    If I understand correctly that's just what Wikipedia explains as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Invest... "After a proposed draft was leaked in March 2014,[5] the European Commission launched a public consultation on a limited set of clauses and in January 2015 published parts of an overview.[6]" Otherwise you would already earn 100000 EUR from Wikileaks by posting that link?
- tptacek 11y ago
  You're getting two different sets of documents confused. The negotiating documents --- the early drafts of the treaty, which are not binding --- are certainly not public. They are closely guarded secrets; that secrecy exists to protect the "integrity" of the negotiating process, for a very narrow definition of "integrity" that mostly means "minimized direct lobbying". But the treaties themselves have to be ratified to become binding law. They are published, for public review, before that happens. Wikileaks is effectively asking for people to leak the negotiating documents.

cies 11y ago

> This is not a democracy. Old news. But still glad with every person who comes to this conclusion. I think we need a law that makes any secret agreement an "unlawful" agreement that we don't have to abide by.

dageroth 11y ago

There is a good podcast by planetmoney explaining it. Mostly it is because there are so many industries and interests touched that regardless of what you negotiate, there will be public outrage and pressure on the negotiators which make it much harder to reach an agreement. If that is the case though, I am not sure whether an agreement must be reached... Anyhow, interesting podcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episode-635-trade-deal-confidential http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episo...