6 ms·

Agree -- if Facebook had an "export my friend list to Excel" button, then plenty of non-programmers could perform this task using existing tools. I read the tu

by toby 11y ago

Agree -- if Facebook had an "export my friend list to Excel" button, then plenty of non-programmers could perform this task using existing tools. I read the tutorial and I am sort of struggling to see what benefit this would give someone who was already an Excel power-user.

crisnoble 11y ago
An excel power-user is indistinguishable from a programmer. If you are an excel power-user, and don't think you are a programmer, learn javascript, http://eloquentjavascript.net/ http://eloquentjavascript.net/.
- dang 11y ago
  I've known many Excel power users who are technically minded and experts in their domains, but nevertheless are not programmers. (Edit: obviously they're programmers in the sense that they make the computer compute things, but not via a general-purpose language.) They have no interest in learning Python or JavaScript or even VBA—it doesn't fit with how they like to think. Instead, they lay out complex calculations in Excel using long chains of intermediate columns (zeros and ones and COUNTIF, anyone?).
  - eximius 11y ago
    Sounds like Functional Programming might make a lot of sense to them (operating on transformations and whatnot)
    - dang 11y ago
      There are definitely some symmetries there, but also differences. These users don't think so abstractly. They get their computation working on one set of numbers and then, if they need to reuse it, copy-paste and modify.
  - crisnoble 11y ago
    The only thing a super complex formula is missing is the notion of a for loop. In lieu of that, I used to pull a column down as many times as the loop needed to run. Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript.
    - mistermann 11y ago
      > Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript. Is the javascript comment somehow related to Excel, or had you moved beyond Excel at that point?
      - crisnoble 11y ago
        I have move beyond Excel, and now I am a web developer. I still have a special place in my heart for overly complex spreadsheets.
    - dang 11y ago
      Some spreadsheet users discover programming and take to it, which is great. Others have the opposite reaction—writing scripts doesn't fit how they like to think or work. It sounds like you are the first kind of user; the ones I was thinking of are the latter.
ModernMech 11y ago
Excel is a very powerful tool, but it reaches a utility plateau very quickly when you start going outside its intended purpose of being a spreadsheet application. You're correct that a power-user can do pretty much anything in Excel, but when you start talking about actual database operations (like Join), state, and UI, then you're at the point where the tool is working against you.
- toby 11y ago
  This is totally true, of course... I just think that exploring examples that would be really hard with Excel would make the point better.
- JBiserkov 11y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by state and UI, but Excel definitely has a join-like functionality in the form of vlookup function. https://support.office.com/en-in/article/VLOOKUP-function-0bbc8083-26fe-4963-8ab8-93a18ad188a1 https://support.office.com/en-in/article/VLOOKUP-function-0b...
  - mistermann 11y ago
    Now try doing a VLookup using more than one column. Artificial limitations like this are one reason people rightfully hate Microsoft.
    - tycho01 11y ago
      The so-so way: use MATCH in one column to get the row numbers, INDEX in one column for each column you want to pull in to actually grab them using that row number. Alternative: join the tables using Power Query so you could have it refresh and give you the combined version even after adding more columns. I mean, point taken, but in case you were wondering, then yeah. VBA also does SQL operations on Excel tables, but that's, well, worse.
      - mistermann 11y ago
jamii 11y ago
> If Facebook had an "export my friend list to Excel" button, then plenty of non-programmers could perform this task using existing tools. The task was to send alerts whenever a friend was nearby. Excel is amazing for non-professional programmers, but it doesn't deal well with changing data, unless you want to click the "export my friend list to Excel" button every five minutes. There are tools that will act as real-time data sources in Excel but it's not a natural fit. If we did nothing but make "real-time Excel" it would still be incredibly useful for a lot of people.
- infinite8s 11y ago
  Have you seen the work on Gneiss (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~shihpinc/gneiss.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~shihpinc/gneiss.html) on user programmable spreadsheets?

by toby 11y ago

crisnoble 11y ago

An excel power-user is indistinguishable from a programmer. If you are an excel power-user, and don't think you are a programmer, learn javascript, http://eloquentjavascript.net/ http://eloquentjavascript.net/.

dang 11y ago
I've known many Excel power users who are technically minded and experts in their domains, but nevertheless are not programmers. (Edit: obviously they're programmers in the sense that they make the computer compute things, but not via a general-purpose language.) They have no interest in learning Python or JavaScript or even VBA—it doesn't fit with how they like to think. Instead, they lay out complex calculations in Excel using long chains of intermediate columns (zeros and ones and COUNTIF, anyone?).
- eximius 11y ago
  Sounds like Functional Programming might make a lot of sense to them (operating on transformations and whatnot)
  - dang 11y ago
    There are definitely some symmetries there, but also differences. These users don't think so abstractly. They get their computation working on one set of numbers and then, if they need to reuse it, copy-paste and modify.
- crisnoble 11y ago
  The only thing a super complex formula is missing is the notion of a for loop. In lieu of that, I used to pull a column down as many times as the loop needed to run. Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    > Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript. Is the javascript comment somehow related to Excel, or had you moved beyond Excel at that point?
    - crisnoble 11y ago
      I have move beyond Excel, and now I am a web developer. I still have a special place in my heart for overly complex spreadsheets.
  - dang 11y ago
    Some spreadsheet users discover programming and take to it, which is great. Others have the opposite reaction—writing scripts doesn't fit how they like to think or work. It sounds like you are the first kind of user; the ones I was thinking of are the latter.

ModernMech 11y ago

Excel is a very powerful tool, but it reaches a utility plateau very quickly when you start going outside its intended purpose of being a spreadsheet application. You're correct that a power-user can do pretty much anything in Excel, but when you start talking about actual database operations (like Join), state, and UI, then you're at the point where the tool is working against you.

toby 11y ago
This is totally true, of course... I just think that exploring examples that would be really hard with Excel would make the point better.
JBiserkov 11y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by state and UI, but Excel definitely has a join-like functionality in the form of vlookup function. https://support.office.com/en-in/article/VLOOKUP-function-0bbc8083-26fe-4963-8ab8-93a18ad188a1 https://support.office.com/en-in/article/VLOOKUP-function-0b...
- mistermann 11y ago
  Now try doing a VLookup using more than one column. Artificial limitations like this are one reason people rightfully hate Microsoft.
  - tycho01 11y ago
    The so-so way: use MATCH in one column to get the row numbers, INDEX in one column for each column you want to pull in to actually grab them using that row number. Alternative: join the tables using Power Query so you could have it refresh and give you the combined version even after adding more columns. I mean, point taken, but in case you were wondering, then yeah. VBA also does SQL operations on Excel tables, but that's, well, worse.
    - mistermann 11y ago

jamii 11y ago

> If Facebook had an "export my friend list to Excel" button, then plenty of non-programmers could perform this task using existing tools. The task was to send alerts whenever a friend was nearby. Excel is amazing for non-professional programmers, but it doesn't deal well with changing data, unless you want to click the "export my friend list to Excel" button every five minutes. There are tools that will act as real-time data sources in Excel but it's not a natural fit. If we did nothing but make "real-time Excel" it would still be incredibly useful for a lot of people.

infinite8s 11y ago
Have you seen the work on Gneiss (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~shihpinc/gneiss.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~shihpinc/gneiss.html) on user programmable spreadsheets?