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I don't see what is simple about this plan. It takes a highly irresponsible government to borrow "obviously non-repayable" amounts of money for decades. Greece

by kjksf 11y ago

I don't see what is simple about this plan. It takes a highly irresponsible government to borrow "obviously non-repayable" amounts of money for decades. Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. I also don't see what exactly you mean by "You now own that country, its resources, and all the people in it". Minus hyperbole, who owns what exactly? If you read the terms of the bailout, it consists of prosaic reforms like allowing shops to be opened on Sundays, eliminate rampant tax avoidance, rise retirement age to merely match other Euro countries, stop hiring government employees if you don't have the money to pay them. And at the end of the day, the only way to enforce that Greece does those reforms is to stop giving Greece even more money. Greece promised and failed to deliver before. Those are things that Greek government should have done long time ago except they didn't, got in huge debt and now some people think that it's the lender's fault.

RodericDay 11y ago
Do you have any examples were you actually think that the lender is at fault and deserves punishment, while the borrower deserves a break?
powertower 11y ago
> Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. No. I'm putting the blame on the heroin supplier.
danharaj 11y ago
Greece should have been allowed to default. That's why lenders make money. Because there is a risk of default. Bailing out an irresponsible lender to turn the problem from simple finance to geopolitics is not how you solve insolvency. That is how you use insolvency as an excuse to undermine sovereignty. > Those are things that Greek government should have done long time ago except they didn't, got in huge debt and now some people think that it's the lender's fault. It's not the Greek people's fault either. Also, again, when a debtor cannot pay, they default. They do not suffer arbitrarily at the whims of nations and supranational institutions because it's been literally centuries since anyone thought that bankruptcy meant that your autonomy and ability to go on with life was forfeit. Greece's economy collapsed by 25%. The people who structured the deal predicted it would shrink less than 5%. Greece 'fails to deliver'; the people who keep trying to collect on worthless debt fail to be reasonable or realistic. The people who suffer are people who did not make the deals. People have died because of austerity in Greece. For what? Your insipidly vindictive morality? > Minus hyperbole, who owns what exactly? > Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. Presented without comment.
- harperlee 11y ago
  > That's why lenders make money. Because there is a risk of default. Nope! Interest paid also covers more things, like inflation, opportunity cost, and other risks. You could make money as a lender with zero default risk.
  - danharaj 11y ago
    Mildly interesting detail to elaborate on, but the essential point stands, don't you think?
    - harperlee 11y ago
      Well I'm on mobile, so I can't really elaborate a lot, but I do think it's a little bit more central to the case than you imply. This was a european country's sovereign debt, so default risk was expected to be very low, and there has been financial information manipulation, and in those cases people do not just default, but might be also prosecuted. This is a complicated scenario, so simplifying definitions to make a point can end up biasing the result a lot. If it's your chain of reasoning, great; but if you publish it, it's best if you strive to be as complete and transparent as possible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9996843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9996843
6t6t6 11y ago
> Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. In this case, we would be talking about a rehab clinic that gives heroin for free to the people in order to get more customers (patients).

by kjksf 11y ago

RodericDay 11y ago

Do you have any examples were you actually think that the lender is at fault and deserves punishment, while the borrower deserves a break?

powertower 11y ago

> Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. No. I'm putting the blame on the heroin supplier.

danharaj 11y ago

Greece should have been allowed to default. That's why lenders make money. Because there is a risk of default. Bailing out an irresponsible lender to turn the problem from simple finance to geopolitics is not how you solve insolvency. That is how you use insolvency as an excuse to undermine sovereignty. > Those are things that Greek government should have done long time ago except they didn't, got in huge debt and now some people think that it's the lender's fault. It's not the Greek people's fault either. Also, again, when a debtor cannot pay, they default. They do not suffer arbitrarily at the whims of nations and supranational institutions because it's been literally centuries since anyone thought that bankruptcy meant that your autonomy and ability to go on with life was forfeit. Greece's economy collapsed by 25%. The people who structured the deal predicted it would shrink less than 5%. Greece 'fails to deliver'; the people who keep trying to collect on worthless debt fail to be reasonable or realistic. The people who suffer are people who did not make the deals. People have died because of austerity in Greece. For what? Your insipidly vindictive morality? > Minus hyperbole, who owns what exactly? > Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. Presented without comment.

harperlee 11y ago
> That's why lenders make money. Because there is a risk of default. Nope! Interest paid also covers more things, like inflation, opportunity cost, and other risks. You could make money as a lender with zero default risk.
- danharaj 11y ago
  Mildly interesting detail to elaborate on, but the essential point stands, don't you think?
  - harperlee 11y ago
    Well I'm on mobile, so I can't really elaborate a lot, but I do think it's a little bit more central to the case than you imply. This was a european country's sovereign debt, so default risk was expected to be very low, and there has been financial information manipulation, and in those cases people do not just default, but might be also prosecuted. This is a complicated scenario, so simplifying definitions to make a point can end up biasing the result a lot. If it's your chain of reasoning, great; but if you publish it, it's best if you strive to be as complete and transparent as possible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9996843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9996843

6t6t6 11y ago

> Greece behaved like a heroin user and you're putting the blame on rehab clinic. In this case, we would be talking about a rehab clinic that gives heroin for free to the people in order to get more customers (patients).