5 ms·

I used to work with Tim at Sun, and I think very highly of him; I know that he's only being earnest here. That said, there's a bunch of hard data that supports

I used to work with Tim at Sun, and I think very highly of him; I know that he's only being earnest here. That said, there's a bunch of hard data that supports many of the assertions in the New York Times article -- to which I will add one from my own experience: Amazon routinely pursues its ex-employees for violating its non-compete.[1] I have already offered my own experience with respect to Amazon in this regard[2], so I won't rehash that here, but I offer this to show that Tim is engaged in bad science: as with busted software, it's not a particularly interesting data point that "Amazon works for me." Amazon routinely engages in acts that I personally find despicable; that some of its employees are comfortable or happy or perplexed that their company could engage in such acts doesn't negate those acts or in any way exonerate the company behind them. [1] http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazon-sues-employee-taking-google-cloud-job-new-test-non-compete-laws/ http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazon-sues-employee-taking-goo... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7975428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7975428

micampe 11y ago
I think Tim just doesn't realize how privileged he his just by the fact of being Tim Bray.
- x0x0 11y ago
  Yeah, I'm totally astounded an internet personality who is well known to have a very loud voice and is financially secure enough not to be easily controllable isn't treated poorly...
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  He did list the reasons why he might have little idea about the realities of Amazon as he works in a remote office on a niche product. After reading his disclosures, I'd say that yeah, he may not quite realize that he doesn't know what it is like for the mean Amazon employee.
  - timbray 11y ago
    Excuse me… SQS, Route53, Auto Scaling, and Simple Workflow are “niche”?
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Excuse me, compared to Hollywood produced multi-media presentations, consumer goods, and literature? Yeah. Edit: Someone better throw up a definition of 'niche' that explains the downmods.
jessriedel 11y ago
> That said, there's a bunch of hard data that supports many of the assertions in the New York Times article What is the hard data? I only read about half the NYTimes piece, and skimmed the rest, so I very well might have missed it. > it's not a particularly interesting data point that "Amazon works for me." Tim described his observations about a large number of co-workers, not just his own situation, and found them roughly in line with industry norms. He acknowledged the limitations of his observations, unlike the Times piece which lavishly illustrated shocking anecdotes in order give the reader the impression some behaviors were widespread. For instance, a reader of the Times piece would be forgiven for thinking that crying at your desk is the norm at Amazon, but I have now heard four Amazon employees say they have never seen that, and one that gestured vaguely like they maybe had.
- idlewords 11y ago
  If you're going to argue this, and especially if you are going to ask that other people provide "hard data", have the courtesy to read the entire article.
  - jessriedel 11y ago
    This is a silly requirement (and seems equivalent to unfortunate perception that asking for tl;dr summaries is always bad, when in academics they are called "abstracts" and are considered essential). If someone obliquely cites one part of a long reference, it's not unreasonable to ask them to specify which part. And as you can see from his reply, it would not have been useful to read the article.
- bcantrill 11y ago
  What I meant was: "The assertions made by the New York Times piece are corroborated elsewhere." That is, to those who know AWS, it wasn't a terribly surprising article (Tim's shock notwithstanding).
  - jessriedel 11y ago
    Fair enough.
thisisit 11y ago
I think many forget that talking about a particular division or team doesn't reflect on the company as a whole. This applies to both this and NYT article. Tim might be looking at this from his perspective and the people you interacted with might be looking from theirs. While we would like everyone working at a particular company to have consistent, that certainly is not the case. I personally know people from Audible, who have great things to say about Amazon as well as people from e-commerce side, that too non-customer facing ones, describing it as a nightmare.

micampe 11y ago

I think Tim just doesn't realize how privileged he his just by the fact of being Tim Bray.

x0x0 11y ago
Yeah, I'm totally astounded an internet personality who is well known to have a very loud voice and is financially secure enough not to be easily controllable isn't treated poorly...
jsprogrammer 11y ago
He did list the reasons why he might have little idea about the realities of Amazon as he works in a remote office on a niche product. After reading his disclosures, I'd say that yeah, he may not quite realize that he doesn't know what it is like for the mean Amazon employee.
- timbray 11y ago
  Excuse me… SQS, Route53, Auto Scaling, and Simple Workflow are “niche”?
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Excuse me, compared to Hollywood produced multi-media presentations, consumer goods, and literature? Yeah. Edit: Someone better throw up a definition of 'niche' that explains the downmods.

jessriedel 11y ago

> That said, there's a bunch of hard data that supports many of the assertions in the New York Times article What is the hard data? I only read about half the NYTimes piece, and skimmed the rest, so I very well might have missed it. > it's not a particularly interesting data point that "Amazon works for me." Tim described his observations about a large number of co-workers, not just his own situation, and found them roughly in line with industry norms. He acknowledged the limitations of his observations, unlike the Times piece which lavishly illustrated shocking anecdotes in order give the reader the impression some behaviors were widespread. For instance, a reader of the Times piece would be forgiven for thinking that crying at your desk is the norm at Amazon, but I have now heard four Amazon employees say they have never seen that, and one that gestured vaguely like they maybe had.

idlewords 11y ago
If you're going to argue this, and especially if you are going to ask that other people provide "hard data", have the courtesy to read the entire article.
- jessriedel 11y ago
  This is a silly requirement (and seems equivalent to unfortunate perception that asking for tl;dr summaries is always bad, when in academics they are called "abstracts" and are considered essential). If someone obliquely cites one part of a long reference, it's not unreasonable to ask them to specify which part. And as you can see from his reply, it would not have been useful to read the article.
bcantrill 11y ago
What I meant was: "The assertions made by the New York Times piece are corroborated elsewhere." That is, to those who know AWS, it wasn't a terribly surprising article (Tim's shock notwithstanding).
- jessriedel 11y ago
  Fair enough.

thisisit 11y ago

I think many forget that talking about a particular division or team doesn't reflect on the company as a whole. This applies to both this and NYT article. Tim might be looking at this from his perspective and the people you interacted with might be looking from theirs. While we would like everyone working at a particular company to have consistent, that certainly is not the case. I personally know people from Audible, who have great things to say about Amazon as well as people from e-commerce side, that too non-customer facing ones, describing it as a nightmare.