4 ms·

I don't give much credence to the "moral support" thing - a manager is a disruptive figure to a coder, whose presences implies the possibility of sudden changes

I don't give much credence to the "moral support" thing - a manager is a disruptive figure to a coder, whose presences implies the possibility of sudden changes of course, and who can't be casually ignored. If you want a coder working in "the zone", then stay away! But the real question the manager should be asking is: am I going to be the bottleneck - for a decision that needs to be made, for knowledge only I have (such as the root password on "live"), for some likely situation where I need to pull rank over the phone to get a 3rd party to move in a hurry? If yes, stay (and stay quiet). If no, go home.

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
> a manager is a disruptive figure to a coder, > whose presences implies the possibility of > sudden changes of course, and who can't be > casually ignored. You mean a bad manager. A good manager is none of those things. I try to be a good manager, and my programmers tell me that they appreciate my staying on those rare occasions they have to work late.
- cia_plant 17y ago
  Your programmers also tell their mothers-in-law that they love having them over...
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
    I've been trying to find a way of saying this nicely - I hope I've succeeded. My apologies to all if I haven't, and I would welcome suggested rewordings. While some may find your comment witty and amusing, it presupposes that my programmers lie to me, and that I am taken in by their lies. It presupposes that I am in fact a bad manager, and that my programmers feel they would be better off without me. In short, you are implying that I am either incompetent, a liar, or both, and perhaps worse, that my programmers are liars. I find it somewhat offensive that without knowing me, my management style, my work, my company or my programmers, you feel free on a public forum to make such suppositions. I take very seriously the relationship I have with my staff, and to have it criticised unfairly is, to my mind, obnoxious. I write this mostly so that you know how your comments can and have been interpreted. If this is not what you meant then I invite you to clarify them. If this is what you meant, then I invite you to say so. On the other hand, if you were making a quick, witty, snarky comment, then I would suggest it's out of place on this forum.
    - cia_plant 17y ago
      I didn't mean it personally - I obviously have no idea about your own management style. I have found that many managers are unaware of how much a formal relationship hurts open communication, and how much effort must be expended to maintain an atmosphere of honesty. In my experience most programmers - most employees for that matter - tell their managers what their managers want to hear. If that constitutes incompetence and dishonesty, then incompetence and dishonesty are the normal conditions of corporate life (as most any popular depiction of corporate life will attest).
      - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
        > ... many managers ... I would've thought my presence here on HN would've taken me out of the usual class of manager. Sometimes it's hard, but I make certain I reward open and honest communication. I use various techniques, but I make sure my programmers, and employees in general, can give me bad news without fear of personal repercussions. This includes telling me when they've screwed up. No one gets punished for that. The only things I demand are honesty and consideration/diplomacy. And even if they express themselves less than diplomatically, they still don't get punished. Some years ago when I was senior, but not really a manager, the company was in the process of going under. I and some senior colleagues managed a semi-hostile management buyout. In the middle of all this, when none of us had been paid for four months, and it was going to be at least another two before we could take control, 90% of the staff were still coming in and working 24 hour weeks (4 days of 6 hours). Without pay. When we'd given a briefing of where things were we asked one or two to stay behind, and asked why they hadn't left. Their response - we don't want to work with anyone else. We've worked hard, really hard, to maintain that kind of working relationship, and to this day any of them, when necessary, will come into my office to give me bad news, knowing that I want the truth. That's why I object to comments like yours. I accept that it wasn't intended personally, but wanted you to be aware of how it could be construed, and how potentially destructive attitudes like that can be.

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago

> a manager is a disruptive figure to a coder, > whose presences implies the possibility of > sudden changes of course, and who can't be > casually ignored. You mean a bad manager. A good manager is none of those things. I try to be a good manager, and my programmers tell me that they appreciate my staying on those rare occasions they have to work late.

cia_plant 17y ago
Your programmers also tell their mothers-in-law that they love having them over...
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
  I've been trying to find a way of saying this nicely - I hope I've succeeded. My apologies to all if I haven't, and I would welcome suggested rewordings. While some may find your comment witty and amusing, it presupposes that my programmers lie to me, and that I am taken in by their lies. It presupposes that I am in fact a bad manager, and that my programmers feel they would be better off without me. In short, you are implying that I am either incompetent, a liar, or both, and perhaps worse, that my programmers are liars. I find it somewhat offensive that without knowing me, my management style, my work, my company or my programmers, you feel free on a public forum to make such suppositions. I take very seriously the relationship I have with my staff, and to have it criticised unfairly is, to my mind, obnoxious. I write this mostly so that you know how your comments can and have been interpreted. If this is not what you meant then I invite you to clarify them. If this is what you meant, then I invite you to say so. On the other hand, if you were making a quick, witty, snarky comment, then I would suggest it's out of place on this forum.
  - cia_plant 17y ago
    I didn't mean it personally - I obviously have no idea about your own management style. I have found that many managers are unaware of how much a formal relationship hurts open communication, and how much effort must be expended to maintain an atmosphere of honesty. In my experience most programmers - most employees for that matter - tell their managers what their managers want to hear. If that constitutes incompetence and dishonesty, then incompetence and dishonesty are the normal conditions of corporate life (as most any popular depiction of corporate life will attest).
    - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
      > ... many managers ... I would've thought my presence here on HN would've taken me out of the usual class of manager. Sometimes it's hard, but I make certain I reward open and honest communication. I use various techniques, but I make sure my programmers, and employees in general, can give me bad news without fear of personal repercussions. This includes telling me when they've screwed up. No one gets punished for that. The only things I demand are honesty and consideration/diplomacy. And even if they express themselves less than diplomatically, they still don't get punished. Some years ago when I was senior, but not really a manager, the company was in the process of going under. I and some senior colleagues managed a semi-hostile management buyout. In the middle of all this, when none of us had been paid for four months, and it was going to be at least another two before we could take control, 90% of the staff were still coming in and working 24 hour weeks (4 days of 6 hours). Without pay. When we'd given a briefing of where things were we asked one or two to stay behind, and asked why they hadn't left. Their response - we don't want to work with anyone else. We've worked hard, really hard, to maintain that kind of working relationship, and to this day any of them, when necessary, will come into my office to give me bad news, knowing that I want the truth. That's why I object to comments like yours. I accept that it wasn't intended personally, but wanted you to be aware of how it could be construed, and how potentially destructive attitudes like that can be.