6 ms·

One of my favorite books from the last few years is "The Smartest Kids in the World." The reporter visits three countries that do very well on the internationa

by reuven 11y ago

One of my favorite books from the last few years is "The Smartest Kids in the World." The reporter visits three countries that do very well on the international PISA test, and talks about what can indeed work in the US and other countries. She (and the locals) are very negative about South Korea, but very positive about Poland and Finland. And she points out that all three countries use a fraction of the budget that the US does on education, with much better results. She also points to the fact that outside of the United States, extracurricular activities -- not to mention sports -- are not a part of the school curriculum. If you want to play basketball, then that's great, but don't expect your high school to care about it, because their job is to worry about your education, not sports. I have a PhD in learning sciences (roughly "technology and education"), live in Israel, and have three children. And the way that the schools here run depresses me more each year. As the book points out, and as we probably already know, the forces in charge of schools (e.g., politicians, teacher unions, and taxpayers) are basically aligned against any real reform. Gimmicks such as technology look great, but are virtually useless -- a form of "education theater," as it were. Israelis talk nonstop about class sizes, but I think that a much bigger problem is that we pay our teachers nothing, and give them no respect or power -- and are then surprised that the quality of teachers has declined precipitously. From everything I can tell, we would do well to give teachers massive salary increases, then make it hard to become a teacher and easy to fire bad ones. Then give the teachers huge freedom to do what they want. And yes, this will cost money (which the taxpayers don't want to hear), but on balance it seems to work for most people, most of the time.

danieltillett 11y ago
As an Israeli what effect do you think the rise of religious fundamentalism has had on education outcomes? I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that a large percentage of school age children are born into fundamentalist families that do not value a secular education.
- sampo 11y ago
  Wikipedia says that fundamentalist parents can put their kids in separate fundamentalist schools, if they want. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel#Educational_tracks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel#Educationa...
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    This is hardly likely to raise secular educational outcomes across the whole population.
- reuven 11y ago
  There are two types of religious schools: One (which my children attend) requires English, math, and other subjects. I have criticisms of this school system, for sure. But there's no doubt that they generally teach their students secular subjects that'll allow students to get jobs. A far bigger problem is indeed the "ultra-Orthodox," or "haredi," school system, in Israel, which is exempt from the core curriculum, or any real oversight by the education ministry. This is a tragedy -- one could say, of biblical proportions. These children are purposely getting an education that will not allow them to get a good job when they grow up. Many young Israelis who go through bad school systems get a second chance at a good job when they join the army, at the age of 18, and learn some practical skills -- but haredi children don't join the army, either. Meaning that at the age of 18, they get married and start to have (large) families, basically guaranteeing that their families will be poor. And their children then go to such schools, which repeats the cycle. It's tragic for the students, and tragic for the country. And the fact that the country allows this to happen is ridiculous, in my opinion. But it also reflects the sad fact that haredi (ultra-Orthodox) political parties are often needed to make a coalition in our parliament (the Knesset). Allowing such schools to exist, by removing regulations and giving them additional money, is one of the first demands that the haredi parties make to join the coalition. I know that this will change at some point, because it must. But for now, it boggles my mind and boils my blood.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Thanks for the insiders perspective.
argumentum 11y ago
"From everything I can tell, we would do well to give teachers massive salary increases, then make it hard to become a teacher and easy to fire bad ones. Then give the teachers huge freedom to do what they want. And yes, this will cost money (which the taxpayers don't want to hear), but on balance it seems to work for most people, most of the time." It may not be that expensive, if class sizes are not that important you can have fewer teachers. The problem (in the US) is that the teacher's unions are generally against performance based pay, teacher evaluations and firing bad teachers.
- bsder 11y ago
  > The problem (in the US) is that the teacher's unions are generally against performance based pay, teacher evaluations and firing bad teachers. For good reason: who gets to make those decisions? Parents? Imagine being a biology or history teacher in the deep South. Children? We already have data that the most effective teachers are liked least. Administration? Are those older teachers really poor are they just expensive? Are those "merit" bonuses going to the best teacher or to the one who volunteered to coach the basketball team? The last time a teacher evaluation got implemented in Pennsylvania, they dropped it in a hurry because too many teachers couldn't pass it and they were going to have to pay WAY more to import teachers who could. As has been pointed out previously, firing a genuinely bad teacher is generally straightforward and the procedure is well-documented. However, the administration doesn't want to put in the time or paperwork to do it. And, maybe, just maybe, that administration that's whining about firing and the overbearing paperwork really doesn't have a case and simply wants rid of the teacher for political reasons.
  - reuven 11y ago
    This is a sticky problem, no doubt. But we need to find a way to get rid of bad teachers. Right now, in both the US and Israel (and perhaps other countries), we're in an extreme and untenable situation, in which bad teachers cannot be fired. In the elementary school that my children attended (and that my son still attends), bad teachers were sent off to teach computers. Or science. And so forth. You can imagine what this tells the children, the parents, and the teachers about how much we value these subjects. There was a New Yorker story a few years ago that described how bad teachers couldn't be fired... and thus were sent to a building every day, where they checked in and did literally nothing all day. Yes, they received their full salary and benefits in exchange for doing literally nothing. I'm guessing that a reasonable alternative is to have some sort of weighted system, in which the principal's evaluation, parents' complaints, and student performance all count toward whether a teacher can be fired. The biggest thing should probably be the principal's evaluation, but perhaps if a teacher gets fired, they can get another job, in a different school -- but perhaps the parents' evaluations and the students' performance can be used to determine how many other schools they can go to before being kicked out of the system entirely. > The last time a teacher evaluation got implemented in Pennsylvania, they dropped it in a hurry because > too many teachers couldn't pass it and they were going to have to pay WAY more to import teachers who > could. This is perhaps the most important point: Good teachers need to be paid well. They need incentive to become teachers, and to remain teachers. Which means that people will have to pay a fair amount in order to get a good education. In the US, this will mean taxes have to go up, which is a recipe for political suicide. In Israel, this means taking money away from other things in the education ministry (since we already pay, per capita, more for schooling than most European countries).

by reuven 11y ago

danieltillett 11y ago

As an Israeli what effect do you think the rise of religious fundamentalism has had on education outcomes? I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that a large percentage of school age children are born into fundamentalist families that do not value a secular education.

sampo 11y ago
Wikipedia says that fundamentalist parents can put their kids in separate fundamentalist schools, if they want. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel#Educational_tracks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel#Educationa...
- danieltillett 11y ago
  This is hardly likely to raise secular educational outcomes across the whole population.
reuven 11y ago
There are two types of religious schools: One (which my children attend) requires English, math, and other subjects. I have criticisms of this school system, for sure. But there's no doubt that they generally teach their students secular subjects that'll allow students to get jobs. A far bigger problem is indeed the "ultra-Orthodox," or "haredi," school system, in Israel, which is exempt from the core curriculum, or any real oversight by the education ministry. This is a tragedy -- one could say, of biblical proportions. These children are purposely getting an education that will not allow them to get a good job when they grow up. Many young Israelis who go through bad school systems get a second chance at a good job when they join the army, at the age of 18, and learn some practical skills -- but haredi children don't join the army, either. Meaning that at the age of 18, they get married and start to have (large) families, basically guaranteeing that their families will be poor. And their children then go to such schools, which repeats the cycle. It's tragic for the students, and tragic for the country. And the fact that the country allows this to happen is ridiculous, in my opinion. But it also reflects the sad fact that haredi (ultra-Orthodox) political parties are often needed to make a coalition in our parliament (the Knesset). Allowing such schools to exist, by removing regulations and giving them additional money, is one of the first demands that the haredi parties make to join the coalition. I know that this will change at some point, because it must. But for now, it boggles my mind and boils my blood.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Thanks for the insiders perspective.

argumentum 11y ago

"From everything I can tell, we would do well to give teachers massive salary increases, then make it hard to become a teacher and easy to fire bad ones. Then give the teachers huge freedom to do what they want. And yes, this will cost money (which the taxpayers don't want to hear), but on balance it seems to work for most people, most of the time." It may not be that expensive, if class sizes are not that important you can have fewer teachers. The problem (in the US) is that the teacher's unions are generally against performance based pay, teacher evaluations and firing bad teachers.

bsder 11y ago
> The problem (in the US) is that the teacher's unions are generally against performance based pay, teacher evaluations and firing bad teachers. For good reason: who gets to make those decisions? Parents? Imagine being a biology or history teacher in the deep South. Children? We already have data that the most effective teachers are liked least. Administration? Are those older teachers really poor are they just expensive? Are those "merit" bonuses going to the best teacher or to the one who volunteered to coach the basketball team? The last time a teacher evaluation got implemented in Pennsylvania, they dropped it in a hurry because too many teachers couldn't pass it and they were going to have to pay WAY more to import teachers who could. As has been pointed out previously, firing a genuinely bad teacher is generally straightforward and the procedure is well-documented. However, the administration doesn't want to put in the time or paperwork to do it. And, maybe, just maybe, that administration that's whining about firing and the overbearing paperwork really doesn't have a case and simply wants rid of the teacher for political reasons.
- reuven 11y ago
  This is a sticky problem, no doubt. But we need to find a way to get rid of bad teachers. Right now, in both the US and Israel (and perhaps other countries), we're in an extreme and untenable situation, in which bad teachers cannot be fired. In the elementary school that my children attended (and that my son still attends), bad teachers were sent off to teach computers. Or science. And so forth. You can imagine what this tells the children, the parents, and the teachers about how much we value these subjects. There was a New Yorker story a few years ago that described how bad teachers couldn't be fired... and thus were sent to a building every day, where they checked in and did literally nothing all day. Yes, they received their full salary and benefits in exchange for doing literally nothing. I'm guessing that a reasonable alternative is to have some sort of weighted system, in which the principal's evaluation, parents' complaints, and student performance all count toward whether a teacher can be fired. The biggest thing should probably be the principal's evaluation, but perhaps if a teacher gets fired, they can get another job, in a different school -- but perhaps the parents' evaluations and the students' performance can be used to determine how many other schools they can go to before being kicked out of the system entirely. > The last time a teacher evaluation got implemented in Pennsylvania, they dropped it in a hurry because > too many teachers couldn't pass it and they were going to have to pay WAY more to import teachers who > could. This is perhaps the most important point: Good teachers need to be paid well. They need incentive to become teachers, and to remain teachers. Which means that people will have to pay a fair amount in order to get a good education. In the US, this will mean taxes have to go up, which is a recipe for political suicide. In Israel, this means taking money away from other things in the education ministry (since we already pay, per capita, more for schooling than most European countries).