5 ms·

Economic problems prevent Whites from getting to the top too, not just Asians or Blacks. So how is that an unfair advantage that Whites have over minorities?

Eyas 11y ago
I'm not sure I follow. Yes, absolutely, Whites are subject to economic problems too-- not just persons of color. Are you questioning whether a racial divide exists at all in America, where non-whites are subject to unique limitations that Whites are not subject to? Or is your objection different?
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  A lot of people on HN and other places on the internet believe that everything is the result of class problems. And class problems are completely independent of race.
  - Eyas 11y ago
    Right. I was just asking for confirmation so that I don't argue past the grandparent poster. I also feel like a lot of people take that stance because they feel that those on the opposing side are claiming that it is only because of race. More often than not, we are merely saying that race and class are interconnected; they are neither completely orthogonal, nor exactly the same. There are definitely cycles of racism, patriarchy, and homophobia that perpetuate class struggles that are difficult to break out of. There are also other class struggles that affect us all.
    - kelukelugames 11y ago
      Go read his post history. Unless you enjoy arguing on the Internet then I wouldn't bother.
  - davvolun 11y ago
    > A lot of people...believe that everything is the result of class problems As someone who kind of feels all of the problems we have tend to come from class issues, I'm trying to understand what you mean. First, let me preface, this is all my personal opinion, I don't know if I fit into a stereotypical group you're referring to...probably do... > And class problems are completely independent of race. Second, class problems definitely do not seem to be independent of race; racial distinctions in the inner-city for example. That said, I do think there are equity issues completely unrelated to race. For example, in the American South, there are extremely poor areas of whites ("poor white trash"). Or, for example issues of ethnicity instead of issues of race--injustices in the past for "white" Irish or Catholics i.e. non-WASPs in America. That said, I don't think my belief that all of these problems resulting from class problems precludes tackling all of the angles of the problem. For example, though I have some reservations about Affirmative Action legislation, encouraging e.g. diversification of student populations through AA is laudable and worth pursuing. Another example, in a hypothetical major city composed 25% of some minority X, a company employing say 10% of the local population should reflect that population; we should see the employee population roughly match the city's population. Implementation can be difficult, obviously ("oh that guy was just hired to check the diversity box, ignore him"), but equity, providing opportunities for life improvement to everyone, is something we as a society absolutely need to pursue. I guess what I'm saying is that I believe everything is the result of class problems, class problems being what always cause opportunity inequalities, but class problems are often dependent, though not completely, on race. Does that make sense? Do you feel like I'm way off base here? (Quick aside, I think of the problem more as income and opportunity problems -- class problems and the rhetoric of bourgeois v. proletariat gets us side-tracked on capitalism v. communism/socialism, in my opinion a discussional red herring)

Eyas 11y ago

I'm not sure I follow. Yes, absolutely, Whites are subject to economic problems too-- not just persons of color. Are you questioning whether a racial divide exists at all in America, where non-whites are subject to unique limitations that Whites are not subject to? Or is your objection different?

kelukelugames 11y ago
A lot of people on HN and other places on the internet believe that everything is the result of class problems. And class problems are completely independent of race.
- Eyas 11y ago
  Right. I was just asking for confirmation so that I don't argue past the grandparent poster. I also feel like a lot of people take that stance because they feel that those on the opposing side are claiming that it is only because of race. More often than not, we are merely saying that race and class are interconnected; they are neither completely orthogonal, nor exactly the same. There are definitely cycles of racism, patriarchy, and homophobia that perpetuate class struggles that are difficult to break out of. There are also other class struggles that affect us all.
  - kelukelugames 11y ago
    Go read his post history. Unless you enjoy arguing on the Internet then I wouldn't bother.
- davvolun 11y ago
  > A lot of people...believe that everything is the result of class problems As someone who kind of feels all of the problems we have tend to come from class issues, I'm trying to understand what you mean. First, let me preface, this is all my personal opinion, I don't know if I fit into a stereotypical group you're referring to...probably do... > And class problems are completely independent of race. Second, class problems definitely do not seem to be independent of race; racial distinctions in the inner-city for example. That said, I do think there are equity issues completely unrelated to race. For example, in the American South, there are extremely poor areas of whites ("poor white trash"). Or, for example issues of ethnicity instead of issues of race--injustices in the past for "white" Irish or Catholics i.e. non-WASPs in America. That said, I don't think my belief that all of these problems resulting from class problems precludes tackling all of the angles of the problem. For example, though I have some reservations about Affirmative Action legislation, encouraging e.g. diversification of student populations through AA is laudable and worth pursuing. Another example, in a hypothetical major city composed 25% of some minority X, a company employing say 10% of the local population should reflect that population; we should see the employee population roughly match the city's population. Implementation can be difficult, obviously ("oh that guy was just hired to check the diversity box, ignore him"), but equity, providing opportunities for life improvement to everyone, is something we as a society absolutely need to pursue. I guess what I'm saying is that I believe everything is the result of class problems, class problems being what always cause opportunity inequalities, but class problems are often dependent, though not completely, on race. Does that make sense? Do you feel like I'm way off base here? (Quick aside, I think of the problem more as income and opportunity problems -- class problems and the rhetoric of bourgeois v. proletariat gets us side-tracked on capitalism v. communism/socialism, in my opinion a discussional red herring)